How can .GOV know who owns what firearm?

[Target]

In my thread about transferring firearms to family members, I realized how silly the whole gun registry thing is.
There is NO WAY to know who currently owns a firearm by its serial #.
There is no way to prove that you sold it either, if you needed to.

If a long gun is found at the scene of a crime, there is no way to trace its history.

As far as registry, if the only way to track firearms is via 4473s which are held by the FFL that does the transfer/sale and lets say I sell a shotgun to a guy in Nebraska , there is no paper trail in NY . It ends at the FFL where the firearm was transfered to me.
And in that case, when I took possesion of it, I don't recall recieving an copy of the 4473 or a receipt of any kind from the FFL for me to prove that I legally obtained it.
When I sold said shotgun to the guy in Nebraska via an online forum of which I cannot get onto because I no longer remember that password, how can I prove that I sold it?
I boxed it up and sent it to a FFL in Nebraska via the US Postal Service.
And since the FBI does not maintain a data base of transactions ( as we're told) , how can ownership of any firearm be traced to an individual?
And the serial # is not mentioned in the NICS phone call the only place it is written is on the 4473 and if you use a small FFL, it is not on computer ( sometimes on purpose). Big Box stores do it electronically and can tie names & serial # if requested by LE.


Not to mention states like Missouri that do not have the "Common Sense Gun Laws" and you can buy / sell at yardsales.

I've come to the conclusion that they do not know how many guns are out there and who has what.
I can sleep better now knowing that a SWAT team will not bust dowm my door to confiscate my stuff.

 

[Magnus]

I don't think they monitor what weapons are where. Unless it comes up in a crime, then they go to the dealer who transferred it, and then to you. In the way of confiscation, I can see them officially requesting that dealer's submit records. They may not know where the guns are, but they can know where they were, and they know we can't just have one....

 

[Deplorable Me]

How often does the gubbermint do anything that qualifies as bright?

We have morons electing morons who appoint morons to administrative and bureaucratic positions.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

they will run it down.

depends on how bad they want you.

look how fast they found where the bomber bought his pressure cookers from....in a day or two. and they are mass produced pressure cookers.

if they really want to know they will arrive shortly after they begin looking.

the only real way is if some one in the chain died....and his wife did not know he sold it, or to whom.

 

[BerettaGuy]

I shake my head and kick myself in the ass.
Why have I sacrificed so much to fight for New York frogs in the pot.
We are doomed.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

The serials are simply a starting point to an investigation.

 

[Calculon]

Where does the serial number get reported to the ATF? During BG check? Otherwise how do they know which FFL sold the firearm?

 

[Mk44]

I agree w/ bullet guy. If they (auth/ gov.) want to they will find you.

I've sold plenty of long gun by mail. But I usually go the route of using a FFL to FFL. It's not necessary w/ long guns to ship from FFL-FFL, but I don't like the idea of mailing a photocopy of my driver lic to anyone (use to work in fraud unit & catch all kind of ppl.)

I would get a receipt from my FFL that he took possession (on his books) of the firearm & a shipping receipt from my FFL that it was shipped to the buyer's FFL with buyer's name. Yes, it's an added expense but I sleep better at night. Seller's choice.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

You do know that FFLs have their own identifiable number right? I'm not going to claim I know exactly how the reporting works but in this day and age of electronic transactions I'm sure this information can be propagated over many many redundant systems in a matter of seconds.

 

[MoMan]

The serial number does not get reported to the ATF. However, it is recorded on Form 4473. This information must be recorded into the dealer's "Acquisition and Disposition Log".

From Wikipedia:
The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into a required "bound-book" called an "Acquisition and Disposition Log.[3] A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of, the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five-day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

 

[NirvanaFan]

Obviously, if someone sells it to someone else with trading cash and a handshake, there's no way of tracking that. However, if it goes through a FFL, they can certainly track it. In OPs scenario, they can ask him what FFL he sold the gun to. Then, they can go to that FFL and examine his paperwork. In there, it will show where he received it from and who he sold it to. They ask that guy, and trace it through another FFL. Once someone forgets what FFL they sold the gun to, or sold it with just a handshake, the authorities won't be able to track it down though.

Until national registration hits that is.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

The serial number does not get reported to the ATF.

Maybe... maybe not.

 

[ProgSpear]

I don't think they really care about serial numbers per se. What they really want to know is exactly who owns what kind of guns, thus the emphasis on ammunition databases. In particular, if you buy 1000's of 5.56/.223, 9mm, .45 APC, .308, 12 ga. buck/slugs etc. then the stasi takes an interest, and will flag you for the utopian roundup. I just went to a Gander that had boxes of Federal .22 in stock, and they wanted my DL#! I asked whose policy this was and was answered it was Gander's, which I flat don't believe. My guess is the stasi discovered that Point of Sales databases are far better than anything the gov could cook up, and just started dictating to certain retailers to implement the plan for them. Yeh, I know I'm paranoid, but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get me. I spent too many years in the IT business so I understand the capabilities. Just my $.02 on this.

EDT: When this starts happening at my LGS, then I'll know the end is near.

 

[Celt]

In the original draft of the Safe Act there was one section in reference to the ammo database that said if someone were to buy 1000 rounds of ammo that a red flag would go up and the state police would be able to contact that person for questioning. Of course I'm paraphrasing , but that is exactly what the intentions were. It was one small segment that was taken out before the actual passage of it.

 

[GOYABEAN]

Maybe if there's a paper trail they could given time!

 

[MoMan]

Maybe if there's a paper trail they could given time!

SOOOO the moral of the story is: Know who you are selling to, get $$, and a handshake! Last but not least; give the government, ESPECIALLY FUAC, the finger salute!!

 

[Acer-m14]

before the safe crap i know for sure ... gun raffles .. one old guy in the organization hosting the raffle bought all the firearms under his name and did the nics. at the raffle the guns were just handed over ... and currently he has passed away .. ... gunna make a fun job trying to track them ..

now onto cooler things .. how they gunna find or track a slam fire 12ga pipe gun .. O.O

 

[BerettaGuy]

Much discussion on ATF procedures and what not.
Not one mention of any kind of infringement.
To many "gun owners" are feeling warm and comfortable in the pot and are so conditioned to propaganda about common sense and "safety" and the need to be accepted that they are becoming oblivious to the tiny bubbles starting to appear in the water.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

We know these are all huge infringements on our rights. But what can you realistically do about it?

 

[dsdmmat]

It is not that difficult to trace the firearm to the first owner. The ATF calls the manufacturer, the manufacturer says they sent it to this distributer, the ATF calls the distributer, the distributer says they sent it to joes bar and guns. The ATF calls joes bar and guns and gives them 24 hours to respond to who they sold it to, the ATF then calls John Q Public and says tell me about this gun. If John Q Public has a bill of sale they call the next guy and so on until the trail goes cold.

Even if you didn't fill out a 4473 everytime you bought a gun from a dealer they would record that sale on a bill of sale just to prove where it went it is smart business. The .gov is always going to have some form of ATF for tracking guns manufactures make and sell if for nothing else.