Is a Federal Installation subject to the Gun Laws of the State?

[FP1201]

I posted this exact thread on arfcom and am asking here:

Now think about this a little bit: Military Bases are Federal Lands and supposedly independent from the State, however the State Police are active on Post... but this isn't going that way.
Approximately ten years ago when the PX established a Gun Department, both the State Police and the County Sheriff's Office told they did not need and would not even entertain a State Dealers Licenses (Dealer's Licenses/Gunsmith Licenses is required for Handguns)
Fast forward to today, and now they are being told they cannot sell ammunition because they do not have the "Seller of Ammunition" certificate and cannot sell Handguns as they lack a Firearms Licenses issued by the State with the State Police identification number... pretty fucked up, and up until now hasn't been an issue, but now that it's come to light the question of sovereignty comes into play along with compliance.

 

[SomeSoldier]

No because it's federal land, not state land. But is a business on post subject to state law on a federal installation? I would think not as businesses on military bases are not required to collect sales tax.

 

[FP1201]

No because it's federal land, not state land. But is a business on post subject to state law on a federal installation? I would think not as businesses on military bases are not required to collect sales tax.

Does set up quite a quandary, and yes there ARE or has been Businesses that "collected" State sales taxes on purchases made/delivered on Post. (If you order from Amazon and it's delivered to an on-Post address they still charge sales tax. The issue here is Handguns and Ammunition: Does the Post Exchange have to comply with State Laws?
OK, you can buy a Handgun there without a Handgun Licenses (still complying with Federal Law via 4473) and it's Legal on Post, but as soon as you're off the Reservation you're in violation unless you are traveling through non-stop to a destination outside the State.
Is AAFES bound to follow NYS Law and procure a Firearms Dealers Licenses (remember the changes that came along with CCIA and other Laws of that time frame now include Rifles/shotguns/others in the definition) before selling Guns and Ammunition?
If you're a seller of ammunition you're required by NY to have a certificate and Log Book for ammunition sold. (Certificate not required if you have the Dealers Licenses)
If the Store on Federal Lands is not subject to State Laws, then the AW Ban (un_SAFE) really has no hold so long as the gun remains on Post. (think of States such as Montana that told BATFE to fuck off, if it was made and used within that State) Damn near every Soldier there has multiple 30 round magazines along with their equipment, and a LOT of them end up off Post in Housing both during active Duty, and when Soldiers seperate from the Service, but I digress.

 

[SomeSoldier]

Does set up quite a quandary, and yes there ARE or has been Businesses that "collected" State sales taxes on purchases made/delivered on Post. (If you order from Amazon and it's delivered to an on-Post address they still charge sales tax. The issue here is Handguns and Ammunition: Does the Post Exchange have to comply with State Laws?
OK, you can buy a Handgun there without a Handgun Licenses (still complying with Federal Law via 4473) and it's Legal on Post, but as soon as you're off the Reservation you're in violation unless you are traveling through non-stop to a destination outside the State.
Is AAFES bound to follow NYS Law and procure a Firearms Dealers Licenses (remember the changes that came along with CCIA and other Laws of that time frame now include Rifles/shotguns/others in the definition) before selling Guns and Ammunition?
If you're a seller of ammunition you're required by NY to have a certificate and Log Book for ammunition sold. (Certificate not required if you have the Dealers Licenses)
If the Store on Federal Lands is not subject to State Laws, then the AW Ban (un_SAFE) really has no hold so long as the gun remains on Post. (think of States such as Montana that told BATFE to fuck off, if it was made and used within that State) Damn near every Soldier there has multiple 30 round magazines along with their equipment, and a LOT of them end up off Post in Housing both during active Duty, and when Soldiers seperate from the Service, but I digress.

It is the benefit to soldiers to buy at the PX to not pay sales tax. If they charge sales tax there is no point to purchasing at the PX.

 

[spat]

I posted this exact thread on arfcom and am asking here:

Now think about this a little bit: Military Bases are Federal Lands and supposedly independent from the State, however the State Police are active on Post... but this isn't going that way.
Approximately ten years ago when the PX established a Gun Department, both the State Police and the County Sheriff's Office told they did not need and would not even entertain a State Dealers Licenses (Dealer's Licenses/Gunsmith Licenses is required for Handguns)
Fast forward to today, and now they are being told they cannot sell ammunition because they do not have the "Seller of Ammunition" certificate and cannot sell Handguns as they lack a Firearms Licenses issued by the State with the State Police identification number... pretty fucked up, and up until now hasn't been an issue, but now that it's come to light the question of sovereignty comes into play along with compliance.

Now ask about Indian reservations.


Would be cool for all the smoke shops to open an ammunition section...

 

[CaliberPlus]

Here is something else to ponder. Guns and gadgets is the only place I have seen this.


I hope the PX manager has it in writing that she did not need a state license. ALWAYS try to get things in writing. Sometimes email is a wonderful thing. I bet the people she dealt wth ten years ago did not put anything in writing.......

 

[FP1201]

Now ask about Indian reservations.


Would be cool for all the smoke shops to open an ammunition section...

My thoughts exactly, but wasn't going to go there... Do the Tribal Police issue citations for no or expired NYS Vehicle Inspections? The Federal Police at the Gate do (or did)

 

[spat]

My thoughts exactly, but wasn't going to go there... Do the Tribal Police issue citations for no or expired NYS Vehicle Inspections? The Federal Police at the Gate do (or did)

Ahh, but if you are driving in the gate they saw you driving uninspected in NYS.

If you had some car that you never took off base would they ?

And that wouldn't apply to the ammo requirement. There is no law about possession of unregistered ammo, or about bring it into the state.

 

[FP1201]

The MP's don't look or give a damn, the FP's get hard on like they're getting a big bonus when they find anything to write a ticket over... Just my opinion but I've been driving through the Gates of Fort Drum since 1987

This is a interesting point from the other Board:

I was always under the impression that federal facilities like West Point were not subject to state laws (Supremacy and all that). Of course the problems happen when you leave the federal property with your federal legally purchased/possessed items.

It will be interesting to see where this goes because I look at the Dobbs ruling as the gift that keeps on giving. In states with abortion restrictions, Biden wants to allow them to take place on federal properties in those states. If it is ultimately determined that state laws can govern conduct on federal property, and state abortion bans enforced on federal property, then I imagine various state gun laws will be applied in Blue States to possession and sales on federal properties as well.

 

[FP1201]

The MP's don't look or give a damn, the FP's get hard on like they're getting a big bonus when they find anything to write a ticket over... Just my opinion but I've been driving through the Gates of Fort Drum since 1987

This is a interesting point from the other Board:

I was always under the impression that federal facilities like West Point were not subject to state laws (Supremacy and all that). Of course the problems happen when you leave the federal property with your federal legally purchased/possessed items.

It will be interesting to see where this goes because I look at the Dobbs ruling as the gift that keeps on giving. In states with abortion restrictions, Biden wants to allow them to take place on federal properties in those states. If it is ultimately determined that state laws can govern conduct on federal property, and state abortion bans enforced on federal property, then I imagine various state gun laws will be applied in Blue States to possession and sales on federal properties as well.

 

[lrick]

Now ask about Indian reservations.


Would be cool for all the smoke shops to open an ammunition section...

Not exactly the same, but they do sell 1.4G/Class C fireworks you'd otherwise have to go to PA to buy, so there's that.

 

[Acer-m14]

Here is something else to ponder. Guns and gadgets is the only place I have seen this.


I hope the PX manager has it in writing that she did not need a state license. ALWAYS try to get things in writing. Sometimes email is a wonderful thing. I bet the people she dealt wth ten years ago did not put anything in writing.......

how to call your rep on this . .

 

[Zerex]

I cannot listen to that windbag spouting obsolete info.

He is spouting about info 6 months old...

The current Military authorization bill just passed the House but will fail in the Senate as it cuts abortion funding and diversity training... Sen Murphy tried to get some gun measures in the Senate bull that would prevent soldiers from owning any guns ever...SO THE CCP COULD RAID A GARRISON AND KILL EVERY AMERICAN.

 

[dsdmmat]

It is the benefit to soldiers to buy at the PX to not pay sales tax. If they charge sales tax there is no point to purchasing at the PX.

The PX does not charge taxes but the vendors contracted by the PX do. I was one such vendor and since your business license comes from the state you have to charge state sales tax.

Some State gun laws apply on the installations that are in this states. They, for example, cannot sell you a handgun in NY unless you have a license. They cannot sell “Assault Weapons” or 30 round magazines in NY. However the Federal Government was not required to Obtain state business licenses. The county or state cannot come in and inspect the federal entities conducting retail business ( food, alcohol, etc).

If the states desires certain things to become a requirement, congress then would have to put it into law.

 

[SomeSoldier]

The PX does not charge taxes but the vendors contracted by the PX do. I was one such vendor and since your business license comes from the state you have to charge state sales tax.

Some State gun laws apply on the installations that are in this states. They, for example, cannot sell you a handgun in NY unless you have a license. They cannot sell “Assault Weapons” or 30 round magazines in NY. However the Federal Government was not required to Obtain state business licenses. The county or state cannot come in and inspect the federal entities conducting retail business ( food, alcohol, etc).

If the states desires certain things to become a requirement, congress then would have to put it into law.

At Ft Knox, I believe AAFES owned the gun counter because it was inside the PX. I am pretty sure there wasn't a sales tax on firearms.

 

[FP1201]

The PX does not charge taxes but the vendors contracted by the PX do. I was one such vendor and since your business license comes from the state you have to charge state sales tax.

Some State gun laws apply on the installations that are in this states. They, for example, cannot sell you a handgun in NY unless you have a license. They cannot sell “Assault Weapons” or 30 round magazines in NY. However the Federal Government was not required to Obtain state business licenses. The county or state cannot come in and inspect the federal entities conducting retail business ( food, alcohol, etc).

If the states desires certain things to become a requirement, congress then would have to put it into law.

That is part and parcel of my questioning: AAFES is observing some Laws of the State, however being a Federal Installation, they really aren't compelled to follow all of them. If they don't need a NY Dealers Licenses, then they don't need to follow State Law up to and unless the Purchaser takes the gun off the Reservation, they have no requirement to follow all the criteria set forth by the Legislature following the Buren decision.
Point is, if they do not need licensing and permission from the State, then are they subject to the whims of the State?
Garrison Commander has been made aware of this situation, which means JAG, and likely State Representatives will be involved before its over.
Sales Tax really isn't of any issue or consequence here.
It is the State that's demanding AAFES submit forms to sell ammunition, additional with that, one would soon expect the reporting requirements and background checks coming in September.

 

[spat]

I was just thinking about the OP.

It asked if the *installation* was subject to NYS law, not the people on it.

The federal installation itself can tell NYS to fuck right the hell off.

Imagine NYS trying to tell Ft Drum what kind of water heaters they can install LOL.

 

[Robin]

Supremacy Clause

The Supremacy Clause refers to the foundational principle that, in general, federal law takes precedence over any conflicting state law. Established under Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the U.S. Constitution, the Supremacy Clause enables the federal government to enforce treaties, create a central...

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[dsdmmat]

At Ft Knox, I believe AAFES owned the gun counter because it was inside the PX. I am pretty sure there wasn't a sales tax on firearms.

No sales tax on the guns because they are sold by aafes. But vendors like coffee shops, GNC and the ones that sell hats and stuff are not aafes and they do charge sales taxes.

 

[dsdmmat]

That is part and parcel of my questioning: AAFES is observing some Laws of the State, however being a Federal Installation, they really aren't compelled to follow all of them. If they don't need a NY Dealers Licenses, then they don't need to follow State Law up to and unless the Purchaser takes the gun off the Reservation, they have no requirement to follow all the criteria set forth by the Legislature following the Buren decision.
Point is, if they do not need licensing and permission from the State, then are they subject to the whims of the State?
Garrison Commander has been made aware of this situation, which means JAG, and likely State Representatives will be involved before its over.
Sales Tax really isn't of any issue or consequence here.
It is the State that's demanding AAFES submit forms to sell ammunition, additional with that, one would soon expect the reporting requirements and background checks coming in September.

An FFL cannot sell you a gun that is not legal in your state of residence. Some installations like Fort Drum also have jurisdiction agreements with the state and counties.

 

[Mr. terzmo]

Military on fed property (base) only need Military certification to carry any handgun and other's. Also just a miliary driver's license tied to the vehicle they operate. Only on the installation. If on active duty, they can go off base but must have order's relating to their leaving the base.