Kimber TLE R/L II aiming question

Calculon · Jun 27, 2019

Not sure what to suggest but a couple thoughts. Are you sure you had your sights aligned properly and the front sight wasn’t above/higher than the rear? Was your grip firm to manage recoil? I’d let someone else shoot it to see if they have same issue.

Darth · Jun 27, 2019

Which sight picture ?

fnfalguy · Jun 27, 2019

@OnSight Firearms Training any thoughts?

Darth · Jun 27, 2019

Crwbr said:
Number 3

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Should be 2.

BDinPutnam · Jun 27, 2019

Crwbr said:
Number 3

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"There's yer problem, right there!"

OnSight Firearms Training · Jun 27, 2019

fnfalguy said:
@OnSight Firearms Training any thoughts?

PRACTICAL PISTOL - ACCURACY & ACCOUNTABILITY

OnSight Firearms Training · Jun 27, 2019

Crwbr said:
I was hoping to get some advice from the group on accuracy.

I was at the range yesterday to practice my new Kimber. This is my first 1911 style pistol. With yesterday’s session I’ve put about 400 rds through it. Haven’t really been worried about accuracy until now because I’ve been getting used to firing a 1911.

My question is at 15 yards, my shots all ended up about 2 inches. My group was spot on, but every shot was high.

When I brought the target back to about 7-10 yards I was still high but not as bad. I put my sight on top of the point I want to hit.

I don’t consistently shoot high with an M&P 40, so I’m trying to figure out if I’m flinching or if there might be a sight poblem.

I’ve included a picture of the targets at 15 yds and 7-10 yds.

View attachment 48004 View attachment 48005

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Looks like you are a local. That is Coyne Park in the background. (I can tell by the infamous "green line"). Please see my previous reply in this thread for a class we have coming up that deal specifically with accuracy.

tapper3 · Jun 28, 2019

Darth said:
Which sight picture ?

View attachment 48006

My two cents..........

Download this excellent image @Darth provided, put it in an email to Kimber, and ask them which sight picture they think you should be using. Don't tell them why, just ask them. This will tell you how they have those fixed sights set up on that gun.

Here's why you need to know this...........

First, ignore the 3 dots - those are good for "flash sight picture" close range, point & pull type shooting. But for real good accuracy nothing beats aligning the top of the front sight post level with the top of the rear sight notch and centered in the notch (#1 & #2). That is more precise. (Of course, there is a speed trade-off, too, dots being faster to acquire for some people.)

Now, if you are using that post & notch sight alignment (rather than aligning the 3 dots) you can choose which sight picture (placement of the sights on the target) you want to use --- choosing between #1 and #2 in Darth's image.

#1 is the typical "Bullseye" sight picture where your intent is to have the point of impact above your point of aim. This allows you to find a specific point of aim on the target -- 6 o'clock at the bottom of the bullseye -- and the sights are set (or adjusted) accordingly to create the effect that the point of impact is X" high at Y distance, thereby hitting the center of the bull while you are holding at a precise point at the bottom of the bull.

#2 is the typical "practical" sight picture used in USPSA / IDPA type shooting where the point of impact is the same as the point of aim (at Y distance, of course). In this type of shooting it is sufficient to have hits within the general area of a rather large scoring zone. Yes, it is possible to very accurately place dead center hits in the scoring zone using this type of sight picture but the difference between the #1 and #2 sight picture is that in "practical" shooting it is not a big detriment to have the sights cover (obscure) the lower half of a rather large scoring area (you are aiming at center mass, after all) whereas with a smaller bullseye having the sights covering the lower have of it would be a big drawback to precise shot placement.

With me so far?

The reason I have gone through all this is it relates to what Kimber thinks your sight alignment and sight picture should be. You say that your point of impact is higher than your point of aim. And you say you were using #3 type sight picture.

Well, if Kimber thinks you should be using #3 sight picture AND your point of impact should be dead center then their front sight post is too short --- causing the muzzle to be elevated more than it should be and causing you to hit higher than you should be. I doubt this to be the case. Kimber is too good to make that mistake.

On the other hand, if they think you should be using #1 sight picture to hit dead center then their sights are spot on. You are hitting high. To hit dead center you would have to aim lower. IF that's what they intended. But I doubt this also.

I expect that they will tell you that for that really good shot placement you should be using #2 sight picture. In which case your high hits are the result of your holding the sights higher on the target than Kimber intended. Look at #2 and #3 again. Look at where the top of the sights are in the #3 image. If the gun is set up for #2 sight picture but you are using #3 sight picture (which places the sights higher on the target) where are the shots gonna go? Higher, right?

I think this is the answer, personally. But this is just my opinion.

But I would attempt to ascertain what they think is correct. Which will tell you whether or not the height of their front sight post is correct or not. Eliminate that possibility first. Eliminate one thing at a time. If you chase 3 rabbits at once you won't catch any of them.

Or you could just take Darth's and BD's word for it and start using the #2 sight picture for your accuracy work and #3 for your "blast 'em" type shooting and live happy.

tapper3 · Jun 29, 2019

@Crwbr I wanted to add something. I don't think you should lose a lot of sleep over this. What sight picture you should be using will sort itself out and you will look back at this as a minor speed bump. One of those things that just bugs you for a little while until it doesn't anymore.

When I look at your targets again what I see is "this guy has some good trigger control". At 15 yards there are only a couple shots that could barely be called flyers. So you seem to have the really important mechanics down pretty good. It doesn't matter how good of a sight picture you have if you can't accompany that with good trigger control. And I think you have that.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of anything other than black post and notch sights (with Sight Black sprayed on to make them even blacker). I have some guns (Glock, CZ) that have other configurations but those are carry guns for, to my mind, close in purposes, not guns I would choose for competition purposes where they could be called upon to make 20-25 yard shots. At least, not for me.

Perception is reality, it is said, and perception is different for everyone. I'm sure there are shooters who can line up 3 dots on a CZ or a dot within a I_I white outline on a Glock and shoot very accurately at 25 yards.

I can't. For difficult shots like that I have to revert back to aligning the top of the front sight post with the top of the rear sight notch and so on. Which means I have to shift gears, so to speak, to acquire the sight alignment and picture that I need for those longer shots.

What has always worked better for me is a wide rear sight notch -- twice as wide as the front sight post -- to my eye, at least. (Perhaps not in actual dimensional reality, just the way my eye perceives it.) This allows me to work within a range of "acceptable sight picture". The eye is always judging what is "acceptable" to make the shot.

For a "large" target (this could be a 6" or 8" target at 5 yards or a 16" target at 10 yards or a 24" target at 15 yards) what is acceptable is having the front sight somewhere within the rear sight notch. It doesn't have to be perfectly aligned. As long as it is somewhat aligned that hit is gonna be in the scoring area. The target area is (relatively) huge, I don't have to hit the dead center of it. (I'm talking USPSA / IDPA shooting here.)

So imperfect alignment is acceptable for those target sizes at those distances. Hell, on the really close large target shots you don't even need to use the sights -- just put the bulk of the gun between the target & the eye, look over the top of the sights, and yank the trigger.

On the other hand, a 6" or 8" target at 25 yards will require a pretty perfect sight alignment and sight picture on the target. (And a little slowing down making the shot. LOL) Anything less will probably be a miss and that is not acceptable.

Filing out that rear notch so there is a lot of daylight on either side of the front post allows my eye to pick up the view pretty quickly. For me, it is just as quick as looking for whether 3 dots are in alignment or not. And I don't have to shift gears to think about which version of sight picture I have to use for a particular shot -- "acceptable" is relative and is either there or it is not.

Brian Enos wrote..... "See what you need to see to make the shot." And that is all it really comes down to. Your eye will "learn" what it needs to see for a given shot and only when it sees it will it allow your finger to press the trigger. And that is your perception - not mine, nor anyone else's.

Just keep doing what you are doing, it'll work itself out.

Another thing that Enos wrote is, "You will learn something every time you fire a shot......... if you pay attention." I took that to heart years ago and every time I go out to shoot I expect to learn something. This is just another learning experience for you. Enjoy it.

BDinPutnam · Jun 30, 2019

tapper3 · Jun 30, 2019

@Crwbr I appreciate your kind words but I have to tell you the only original thought I ever had in learning what I know about pistol shooting is that what works for others may or may not work for me. So I set out to try everything and kept what worked for me. Basically, I stole everything I know about it.

I'll be dating myself by telling you who I tried to learn from - Brian Enos, Rob Leatham, Jerry Barnhart, Jerry Miculek (to some degree). I even got some information from Mike Plaxco (there's a name from way back). All older generation pro shooters but the fundamentals do not change. You still have to work the trigger without disturbing the sight picture. It's that simple. And, like I said, you seem to have that already.

What really opened my mind to shooting in general and pistol competition in particular was a book on tape called "Golf is Not a Game of Perfect" by a sports psychologist by the name of Dr. Bob Rotella. He gets into the mental aspect of golf but it also applies to shooting competition.

Things like your practice time is for learning or perfecting body mechanics & techniques - a time when you think your way through what you are doing and try new things. But match time is when you turn the thinking mode off, let your body do what you taught it in practice, and just perform. Just do it, as the Nike ad used to say. Thinking during a match will kill your performance. And thinking about a miss or mistake on the last stage will really kill it.

He talks a lot about "trying" vs. "doing". As Bagger Vance said in the movie, "Ya cain't make that ball go in the hole, ya gotta let it."

He talks about using visualization to aid in performance. You can either visualize hitting a head shot at 35 yards or you can visualize missing it. Pick one.

And how fear of failure affects how your body functions. (Imagine walking across a 4x4 laying on the ground. No sweat, right? Easy. Totally relaxed. Now imagine that 4x4 being 20 feet in the air.)

I strongly recommend you get a copy of this at some point. I'd let you borrow mine but I wore it out.

I'll give you an example of "just doing it". Bill Wilson came up with a drill that was supposed to tell you whether you were shooting at Master level or not called the Bill Drill. It has been modified somewhat over the years by people who think they are smarter than Bill but originally it was an IPSC (USPSA) target at 10 yards, draw and fire 6 A zone hits in under 2 seconds.

Every time I went out to practice I would shoot a few Bill Drills. And I could never get it. I would have 6 A's but in 2.12 or would rip one in 1.95 and throw 5 A's and a C. Drove me nuts.

I was shooting a STI .38 Super Comp with a C-More dot at the time. And one day as I was practicing I thought I noticed that the dot was not tracking up and down during recoil the way it normally did. So I decided to shoot a quick Bill Drill and really focus on that dot --- just see exactly what that dot was doing as the gun recoiled.

Well, I did and found that I had been seeing things -- the dot was tracking just fine. As I walked down to patch up the 6 A zone hits it occurred to me that the run had felt pretty quick. I glanced down at the timer on my belt -- 1.87 seconds.

I did it !!!!!!!!!

Because I wasn't trying to to it, wasn't thinking about doing it, it just happened.

Enjoy.

Darth · Jul 5, 2019

Crwbr said:
This is what I got back from Kimber after asking what their set up is:

Our pistols are going to have the sights regulated at 25 yards using a 230 gr bullet (in our 45 caliber guns) using sight picture #2 as shown below. The top edge of the front sight should split the target perfectly in half. Sight picture #3 is not as precise as more of the target is obscured – this is used for rapid fire/low light shooting where absolute accuracy isn’t required, but for precision shooting use hold #2.

This is the photo I included in my message:

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Ding ding.

Calculon · Jul 5, 2019

Ok let’s see some new targets.

HEX · Jul 5, 2019

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned so far.. it's a simple thing, but possibly relevant. Grip angle.

The 1911 has a very low grip angle (or less angled grip) compared to most modern pistol designs. Particularly if someone has developed muscle memory for shooting something like a glock accurately..well, think about it. The more extreme angle to the lesser angle, would bring the barrel up somewhat from where that person's muscle memory thinks is 'right'.

tapper3 · Jul 9, 2019

Crwbr said:
This is what I got back from Kimber after asking what their set up is:

Well, now that that is out of the way it's time for more shooting. I'm sure it puts your mind at ease. Again, your groups are great. Keep it up.

cgrutt · Jul 9, 2019

Point of impact (POI) on a 230 gr bullet will be 2.6" above point of aim (POA) at 25 yrds, 2.5" above POA at 50 yrds and 6.9" below POA at 100 yrds so I'm assuming Kimber lowered the front post to dial it in at 25 yrd. When shooting at closer targets (ie 7 yrds or 15 yrds), you'll need to drop your POA on target since the gun is dialed in for POI at 25 yrds and POI will be higher at closer distances.

Calculon · Jul 12, 2019

Well done!

Kimber TLE R/L II aiming question

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