Let’s talk PCC and sub guns!

[ExMember_4526]

Let’s talk PCC and sub guns!

Specifically:

• Do they still have a niche given the recent development and reliability of 10.5” - 12.5”.223/5.56 & 10.5” and down 300 Blackout systems?

• What recommended systems/gear do people run?

• What’s their personal experience in terms of reliability after 2K rounds plus?

 

[ExMember_4526]

Disclaimer:

All system set ups discussed are presumed to be compliant, owned by LE, used in properties out of state or just plain theoretical knowledge

 

[Marine Cpl]

They still have their place. Indoors especially. You get less blast and concussion with a 9mm subgun then you do with a rifle. Especially if that rifle has a short barrel where all the powder isn’t burned inside the barrel. I picked that over a rifle because I do not plan on putting on hearing protection right away if my door is ever kicked in.

Silencers do not apply to us here in NY but the military still uses suppressed MP5’s in really tight spaces like for shipboard operations for example because the barrel is still shorter suppressed than a 10.5 inch AR.

 

[C3D]

Marine Cpl is correct, the HKMP5SD is still in service as it remains one of the quietest suppressed platforms out there and fills a niche role.

Other than certain suppressed usage, 9mm subguns are rapidly relegated to the military and police dust heap. Widespread thinking is .223 is superior in all respects.

Worth noting that in the suppressed context, there are lots of rifle caliber suppressors but a pistol caliber can takes a lot more firing than a rifle. After a single .223 30 round full auto mag dump through my SilencerCo Saker, that can is so hot as to cause instant burns if you touch it. By contrast, an Uzi 32 round mag in 9mm through a Gemtech Vortex is only pleasantly warm. Also worth noting suppressed full auto fire at the indoor range is overrated unless you like to smoke.

In terms of pure pleasure factor - the 9mm subguns are the bee's knees. I can drop 30 rounds in full auto through a stock MP5 at 7 yards and keep them inside a grapefruit sized spread. The Uzi has a nice slow and totally controllable ROF and is still one of the better weapons systems of all times. The top subgun match shooter in the US continues to use a Sterling MKIV and outshoots all the fancy stuff.

 

[ExMember_4526]

For those of us running compliant Non NFA Others or AR (Fixed mag) pistols, although concussion and perceived muzzle blast are valid concerns, there are ways of mitigating those issues. (Having noting to do with suppressors: ear pro & flash suppressor [on Non NFA and Pistol w/ fixed mag])

On a 16.1” + (with no fixed mag: so no muzzle device, etc) the 9mm seems to be (factoring in the variables) better when it comes to concussion & perceived muzzle blast.

However, I feel one has to consider terminal ballistic factors.

Will, your thoughts?

Also, PCC have a reputation of having subpar reliability. (Yes, that’s a generalization). When it comes to 16.1 systems, what brands do you recommend?

What kind of performance have you experienced 2K rounds +?

Marine Cpl is correct, the HKMP5SD is still in service as it remains one of the quietest suppressed platforms out there and fills a niche role.

Other than certain suppressed usage, 9mm subguns are rapidly relegated to the military and police dust heap. Widespread thinking is .223 is superior in all respects.

Worth noting that in the suppressed context, there are lots of rifle caliber suppressors but a pistol caliber can takes a lot more firing than a rifle. After a single .223 30 round full auto mag dump through my SilencerCo Saker, that can is so hot as to cause instant burns if you touch it. By contrast, an Uzi 32 round mag in 9mm through a Gemtech Vortex is only pleasantly warm. Also worth noting suppressed full auto fire at the indoor range is overrated unless you like to smoke.

In terms of pure pleasure factor - the 9mm subguns are the bee's knees. I can drop 30 rounds in full auto through a stock MP5 at 7 yards and keep them inside a grapefruit sized spread. The Uzi has a nice slow and totally controllable ROF and is still one of the better weapons systems of all times. The top subgun match shooter in the US continues to use a Sterling MKIV and outshoots all the fancy stuff.

 

[ExMember_4526]

Marine Cpl is correct, the HKMP5SD is still in service as it remains one of the quietest suppressed platforms out there and fills a niche role.

Other than certain suppressed usage, 9mm subguns are rapidly relegated to the military and police dust heap. Widespread thinking is .223 is superior in all respects.

Worth noting that in the suppressed context, there are lots of rifle caliber suppressors but a pistol caliber can takes a lot more firing than a rifle. After a single .223 30 round full auto mag dump through my SilencerCo Saker, that can is so hot as to cause instant burns if you touch it. By contrast, an Uzi 32 round mag in 9mm through a Gemtech Vortex is only pleasantly warm. Also worth noting suppressed full auto fire at the indoor range is overrated unless you like to smoke.

In terms of pure pleasure factor - the 9mm subguns are the bee's knees. I can drop 30 rounds in full auto through a stock MP5 at 7 yards and keep them inside a grapefruit sized spread. The Uzi has a nice slow and totally controllable ROF and is still one of the better weapons systems of all times. The top subgun match shooter in the US continues to use a Sterling MKIV and outshoots all the fancy stuff.

Thanks, that was actually very informative!

 

[Marine Cpl]

For those of us running compliant Non NFA Others or AR (Fixed mag) pistols, although concussion and perceived muzzle blast are valid concerns, there are ways of mitigating those issues. (Having noting to do with suppressors: ear pro & flash suppressor [on Non NFA and Pistol w/ fixed mag])

On a 16.1” + (with no fixed mag: so no muzzle device, etc) the 9mm seems to be (factoring in the variables) better when it comes to concussion & perceived muzzle blast.

However, I feel one has to consider terminal ballistic factors.

Will, your thoughts?

Also, PCC have a reputation of having subpar reliability. (Yes, that’s a generalization). When it comes to 16.1 systems, what brands do you recommend?

What kind of performance have you experienced 2K rounds +?

I haven’t shot 2k plus rounds. More like around 1000 but in that range both my AR9 and Ruger PCC has been flawless.

Of course terminal ballistics with a short barreled rifle caliber running supersonic ammunition will always be better but at the end of the day, you still have to hit vital organs to stop someone or turn their lights off.

A shot to the heart with a 9mm is better than a shot to the gut with a .223 but if the .223 just barely missed the heart, the pressure wave can disrupt the heart while the 9mm will not.

There are trade offs with whatever you pick. The right PCC will have no muzzle rise at all compared to a short barreled rifle allowing your rate of fire to be faster.

 

[ExMember_4526]

What AR9 brands would you recommend?

 

[ExMember_4526]

Regarding AR9 variants:

If I were to move out of state tomorrow, the Noveske Space Invader seems worth consideration. (Or for Florida property)

However, for options that can establish an attempt at compliance in NYS, what brands? (Preferably feed back with 1k round count minimum)

 

[Marine Cpl]

What AR9 brands would you recommend?

I only have experience with Lone Wolf as far as AR9’s go.

 

[@thewheels]

Regarding AR9 variants:

If I were to move out of state tomorrow, the Noveske Space Invader seems worth consideration. (Or for Florida property)

However, for options that can establish an attempt at compliance in NYS, what brands? (Preferably feed back with 1k round count minimum)

If you're out of state and legal in that locale, I'd look hard at the 10mm CMMG Banshee.
It's on my list when I free myself of the NY tyranny.

 

[BDinPutnam]

What AR9 brands would you recommend?

Angstadt. If you want to run Glock magazines.

I had a Circle10 Glock lower built for a while that I really liked. It lives out of state now.

 

[Calculon]

Angstadt or Matrix.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Also @BoruchYaakov, some pistol calibered platforms handle muzzle rise better than AR platforms. My Ruger PCC although not as pretty as an AR platform, handles muzzle rise better. The AR platform suffers from the heavy 9mm bolt slamming into the buffer tube. It can be mitigated by using a 308 buffer spring, but it still has more muzzle rise than the Ruger.

Check out this video. Look at how it barely rises at all. I chose this for home defense not just for myself, but also because my wife can handle it.

 

[ExMember_4526]

Also @BoruchYaakov, some pistol calibered platforms handle muzzle rise better than AR platforms. My Ruger PCC although not as pretty as an AR platform, handles muzzle rise better. The AR platform suffers from the heavy 9mm bolt slamming into the buffer tube. It can be mitigated by using a 308 buffer spring, but it still has more muzzle rise than the Ruger.

Check out this video. Look at how it barely rises at all. I chose this for home defense not just for myself, but also because my wife can handle it.

Regarding the Ruger PCC, I have heard very mixed feelings.

I haven’t accumulated enough data, nor have I conducted a proper data analysis, but it seems you get problems around 2K + mark.

I have heard that Ruger started addressing the issues recently.

It’s within reason that I could put 4K - 5K rounds through a weapon system within a 6 month period.

Any firearm I own should be “duty” grade & has the potential to fulfill a defensive role.

I see a practical niche for this system specifically relating to my wife.

Anyone with 2K + round report?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Regarding the Ruger PCC, I have heard very mixed feelings.

I haven’t accumulated enough data, nor have I conducted a proper data analysis, but it seems you get problems around 2K + mark.

I have heard that Ruger started addressing the issues recently.

It’s within reason that I could put 4K - 5K rounds through a weapon system within a 6 month period.

Any firearm I own should be “duty” grade & has the potential to fulfill a defensive role.

I see a practical niche for this system specifically relating to my wife.

Anyone with 2K + round report?

This is the first I’ve heard of this. You would think of the thousands of Ruger PCC’s out there, this would be a popular topic.

 

[ExMember_4526]

Let’s get the conversation going! Happy wife = happy life! I need feedback from people with 2K + rounds! (Please specify the exact ammo used, mags & other variables)

 

[Marine Cpl]

All I’ve shot from it is 124 gr NATO FMJ and 115 gr Underwood Extreme Penetrators. Only about 1000 rounds. That’s it. Give or take 100 rounds.

 

[ExMember_4526]

K, that’s a sample size of one. It’s helpful and I appreciate your feedback! Any FTF, stove pipes, etc? What mags you running?

 

[Marine Cpl]

K, that’s a sample size of one. It’s helpful and I appreciate your feedback! Any FTF, stove pipes, etc? What mags you running?

Glock. No stove pipes. One time I had the trigger fail to reset. That’s about it. The charging handle screw and the receiver screws also got loose but after torquing them down real tight, it hasn’t happened again.

 

[ExMember_4526]

One time I had the trigger fail to reset. That’s about it. The charging handle screw and the receiver screws also got loose

These specific issues are some of the negative feedback I have heard with a certain degree of consistency

 

[ExMember_4526]

You have the free float rail?

What average medium groups were you getting at various distances (with what ammo)?

Factory Glock mags?

 

[Marine Cpl]

You have the free float rail?

What average medium groups were you getting at various distances (with what ammo)?

Factory Glock mags?

I have the Parker Mountain Machine handguard. I was one of the first to get it. I use factory Glock 26 magazines.

As far as groups, I don’t know. I do not shoot on a rest or use a magnified scope. I use a 2 MOA red dot and shoot with just one elbow in the table. When I go to Masterclass, at 25 yards they are all in a 3 inch circle. When I go to Davis at 100 yards they are all in an 8 inch circle.

 

[spat]

Regarding AR9 variants:

If I were to move out of state tomorrow, the Noveske Space Invader seems worth consideration. (Or for Florida property)

However, for options that can establish an attempt at compliance in NYS, what brands? (Preferably feed back with 1k round count minimum)

We have already decided that a PS90 is is going to be our first firearm purchase once we get to AZ.

I haven't got a ton of experience with them, but I have put a few mags down range (you can rent one at the firing pin). Both the wife and I like it very much.

We haven't decided yet if it will just be one, or if we're going to get "his and hers". Also not decided is whether we will SBR it, but I think probably I will.

 

[C3D]

One other practical benefit of a subgun vs. rifle is that you can always shoot 9mm in an indoor range, with .223 or larger not so much.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Unless you go to SaraSpa. They are very PCC unfriendly.

 

[@thewheels]

We have already decided that a PS90 is is going to be our first firearm purchase once we get to AZ.

I haven't got a ton of experience with them, but I have put a few mags down range (you can rent one at the firing pin). Both the wife and I like it very much.

We haven't decided yet if it will just be one, or if we're going to get "his and hers". Also not decided is whether we will SBR it, but I think probably I will.

Going into J&G sales in Prescott way back when was one of the most refreshing sights I've ever seen.
I could have easily fatally wounded my wallet.
Had the same experience at a rental shop in Florida a few years ago but I have no desire to live there.

 

[ExMember_4526]

One other practical benefit of a subgun vs. rifle is that you can always shoot 9mm in an indoor range, with .223 or larger not so much.

• I mostly shoot out of state (I’m walking distance from another People’s Republic), have access to private land in Orange, or sometimes go to RISE. Those opinions are all .223/5.56 friendly.

• I was advised to stay away from the two ranges in OC mentioned above (because of the Fuddery). I heard BLT over the bridge in WC is .233/5.56 friendly, but haven’t checked it out yet. Always looking to hear about more options?

• Returning to the topic of the Ruger PCC, anyone have more feedback?

• Let’s talk more about other practical benefits of sub-guns, given the development of smaller packaged .223/5.56 systems. I definitely understand the benefits mentioned above as it relates to certain members of our households.

• However, aside for that niche, why roll with that (given the overall superiority of .223/5.56)?

• Also, more recommendations of the various PCC options would be appreciated (both for NYS & out of state)

 

[@thewheels]

• However, aside for that niche, why roll with that (given the overall superiority of .223/5.56)?

Do you have a toolbox? Do you have more than a pair of pliers in it?

.223/5.56 has its place. It's not the right tool for every job.

 

[C3D]

PCC is cheapest to shoot; .223 is about 50% more than 9mm per round. Indoor use is a plus. Controllability is a plus, but not by much. 9mm offers some interesting choices of bullet weight like 147 and even 158 gr, but not really a plus or minus unless you have a special need. PCC also let’s you shoot in a PCC match, if you like that sort of thing.

Just for avoidance of doubt, “subgun” refers specifically to the full auto variety Vs. the term PCC. I now assume we are talking only about the latter in this thread.