Looking to get my first 12 gauge for trap and such

[meketrefe]

I have several over and under. I have one that got for my wife and it is never used and I could part with that one.
Lanber Sport o/u 12ga from the same place sarrasketas were made. walnut and 5 competition chokes. all bellow 1K.

 

[Acer-m14]

He is high on drugs.

For hunting the 7mm-08 is the one to go and on top if occasional long range is wanted it beats all the 6.5 calibers in every single aspect.
Not only that but it can push 168 and 175gr for large game like large Elk.
The 6.5mm doesn't have the momentum to knock out large game or heavy steel if some circuits.

In terms of short cartriges the 6.8, 6.5LBC or grendel are amazing options.
But one option that is amazing for long range is the 6mm BR or 6.5mm BR wildcat.
Any of those leave the Valkerie in the dust.
Even the very same Valkerie case or 6.8 in 6mm (6mm SPC wildcat) is much better than the 223 version as it gives
more barrel life, similar trayectoris but much better ballistics and... lots of great hunting bullets too!!

A 21" bolt action in 6BR is a joy and that is a world champion cartrige in terms of accuracy.

I mean, in case one doesn't want to go hotter.

the 243 is great but it is overbored and the Creedmoore cannot evolve past the stporting use
as it is maxed out in bullet weight and the 30 dgree angle in the case shoulder is a no go
for gas guns for service use so it will not be adopted past sport.

If one likes the 6.5 bullets the 260 is an amazing choice and can get a bit extra speed
vs. the creedmore and works better in gas guns/autoloaders.

finally you showed up LOL .. ..

 

[meketrefe]

finally you showed up LOL .. ..

I just hate opinions that are not substantiated with some ballistics for a more realistic, versatile and practical use.
But you know, the freaking fashions!

 

[Acer-m14]

@meketrefe and the 7.62x54r mosin is good for Moose .. i seen it and why i got one know your yardage of the shot and your gun ..
and she is a really kick ass lady .. miss that show ..

 

[meketrefe]

@meketrefe and the 7.62x54r mosin is good for Moose .. i seen it and why i got one know your yardage of the shot and your gun ..
and she is a really kick ass lady .. miss that show ..

that is and oldie but a round with some actual balls. You can load brass with 308 bullets given you put a expander button for 308.
I guess it depends on the status of the bore but you also have some good soft points for hunting in the original 310 bore.
A 175gr soft point or partition is no joke.

I hope you have the shorter version that they say it is great for hunting. (more manageable in the brush)

 

[Acer-m14]

that is and oldie but a round with some actual balls. You can load brass with 308 bullets given you put a expander button for 308.
I guess it depends on the status of the bore but you also have some good soft points for hunting in the original 310 bore.
A 175gr soft point or partition is no joke.

I hope you have the shorter version that they say it is great for hunting. (more manageable in the brush)

i have the full Mosin .. i need to find the carbine one to add .. my pro avi .. all i had was spam can ummm silver bar .. lol ..
i do have some actual hunting SP now for it and in brass .. Reloading dies coming soon ..

the 12 pt buck i got with the mosin was the first time rifle was allowed here .. non typical rack .. lots of small 1 inch points ..

 

[meketrefe]

i have the full Mosin .. i need to find the carbine one to add .. my pro avi .. all i had was spam can ummm silver bar .. lol ..
i do have some actual hunting SP now for it and in brass .. Reloading dies coming soon ..

the 12 pt buck i got with the mosin was the first time rifle was allowed here .. non typical rack .. lots of small 1 inch points ..

I saw a documentary about these trappers in the taiga in Siberia and they all had mosins and SKS carbines.
That is to show how much they trust the old stuff and probably are folks on a very tight budget for living.
Another 100 years from now one will still see them chugging along.

The problem is that they shoot like crap by design but one can do some improvements. in any
case more than enough for a 1MOD ( minute of deer ).
I am not expert but they say the finish are among the best.

 

[Acer-m14]

agnes hailstone ... that is who got me to get a mosin ..

and the stuff they do is just awesome .. wish i had the $$$ to buy some of clothing from the hunts .

 

[john156cm]

@john156cm and don't forget .. you can make a shotgun fit you .. if the one you want does not fit when you buy it
my moss 500AT my dad gave me .. first time shooting it getting ready for deer season .. scope eye , bruise on shoulder .. ( no recoil pad on it ) just a
piece of plastic .. it sat in the corner for 20 yrs .. i hated it .. got back into shooting .. what can i do with old MOSS ..
bought a limbsaver recoil pad .. did some measurement to get my trigger pull .. tossed in some common core math LOL ..
cut the stock down for the new pad .. filled the hole under it with #9 shot to help in recoil ... ..

Totally New Feel to the gun now shooting .. its not a mule kicker with slugs and works like a champ for skeet ..
I love shooting it now ..

I like shooting skeet with the pump more then the over under .. for the fact that i have to do more then just pull the trigger for the next shot .. gotta remember to rack that slide and get back on the next bird ..

Well now Never thought about custom fitting one either, I am new to shotguns being that always shot a few rounds of somebody else's. I was thinking semi auto for quickness to get on 2nd clay. Maybe I should lean more toward used.

 

[john156cm]

He is high on drugs.

For hunting the 7mm-08 is the one to go and on top if occasional long range is wanted it beats all the 6.5 calibers in every single aspect.
Not only that but it can push 168 and 175gr for large game like large Elk.
The 6.5mm doesn't have the momentum to knock out large game or heavy steel if some circuits.

In terms of short cartriges the 6.8, 6.5LBC or grendel are amazing options.
But one option that is amazing for long range is the 6mm BR or 6.5mm BR wildcat.
Any of those leave the Valkerie in the dust.
Even the very same Valkerie case or 6.8 in 6mm (6mm SPC wildcat) is much better than the 223 version as it gives
more barrel life, similar trayectoris but much better ballistics and... lots of great hunting bullets too!!

A 21" bolt action in 6BR is a joy and that is a world champion cartrige in terms of accuracy.

I mean, in case one doesn't want to go hotter.

the 243 is great but it is overbored and the Creedmoore cannot evolve past the stporting use
as it is maxed out in bullet weight and the 30 dgree angle in the case shoulder is a no go
for gas guns for service use so it will not be adopted past sport.

If one likes the 6.5 bullets the 260 is an amazing choice and can get a bit extra speed
vs. the creedmore and works better in gas guns/autoloaders.

Fantastic knowledge, I really have to decide what it is I would like to do then. I originally wanted long range for accuracy and knock down power. Someone also mentioned 300 win mag. I should become a used gun dealer so I can buy everything and resell lmao

 

[john156cm]

I have several over and under. I have one that got for my wife and it is never used and I could part with that one.
Lanber Sport o/u 12ga from the same place sarrasketas were made. walnut and 5 competition chokes. all bellow 1K.

Gonna research that one, I am in no hurry because currently working a shitty shift. should be a couple months out but I will check it out

 

[meketrefe]

Fantastic knowledge, I really have to decide what it is I would like to do then. I originally wanted long range for accuracy and knock down power. Someone also mentioned 300 win mag. I should become a used gun dealer so I can buy everything and resell lmao

The winmag is a very popular, very powerful (and very aggressive) cartrige.
I have one savage chambered in winmag and it is not the cartrige you want to make a long pleasant shooting experience so you shoot less.

If you want to stretch it for ultra long range then it will go far but you need a heavy rifle with quality barrels and stocks and decent
glass will quickly put it in the 12lbs-14lbs category. And you want that weight because it will beat you up like an old rug.

Similar thing with a 338 lapua, 338winmag, etc.... they are in the Big boys, heavy rifle category. I have been shooting all my life and
have not mastered the larger calibers. Those rifles are very hard to drive even with heavy setups unless you go Bench Rest or F class
with super heavy rigs and impossible bipods or rests not practical for the average guy unless you are into that kind of thing.

The tactical setups are about the minimum and the rest of the light hunting rifle in those calibers is to shoot very little becuase
they are sledge hammers on your shoulders.

The 7rem mag is a much reasonable option for a magnum w/o going super magnum. But in terms of white tail is also brutal like
the win mag. If not careful will ruin a lot of the meat and might just chop the deer in two halves.

In terms of ballistics the 7mm always wins over the 30 caliber. Less is more in the end.

 

[john156cm]

The winmag is a very popular, very powerful (and very aggressive) cartrige.
I have one savage chambered in winmag and it is not the cartrige you want to make a long pleasant shooting experience so you shoot less.

If you want to stretch it for ultra long range then it will go far but you need a heavy rifle with quality barrels and stocks and decent
glass will quickly put it in the 12lbs-14lbs category. And you want that weight because it will beat you up like an old rug.

Similar thing with a 338 lapua, 338winmag, etc.... they are in the Big boys, heavy rifle category. I have been shooting all my life and
have not mastered the larger calibers. Those rifles are very hard to drive even with heavy setups unless you go Bench Rest or F class
with super heavy rigs and impossible bipods or rests not practical for the average guy unless you are into that kind of thing.

The tactical setups are about the minimum and the rest of the light hunting rifle in those calibers is to shoot very little becuase
they are sledge hammers on your shoulders.

The 7rem mag is a much reasonable option for a magnum w/o going super magnum. But in terms of white tail is also brutal like
the win mag. If not careful will ruin a lot of the meat and might just chop the deer in two halves.

In terms of ballistics the 7mm always wins over the 30 caliber. Less is more in the end.

Ahhh, very wise. So much to consider. I know it will not be my daily shooter but would still like to keep my body parts in tact when I do get to shoot lol
Thank you

 

[meketrefe]

Ahhh, very wise. So much to consider. I know it will not be my daily shooter but would still like to keep my body parts in tact when I do get to shoot lol
Thank you

yes the win mag shooting heavy rounds like 200gr will make your molars rattle. I am a big guy and have to brace myself.
I shot truck loads of 308 in the service and I am ok with it but when you step up in larger cases even the same cases but
in heavier rounds like the 358 winchester( child of the 308) and 35 whelen (child of 30-06) you have to prepare yourself
for the extra recoil. BTW those above are amazing rounds any of them in 30 or 35 calibers. Affordable, accurate, popular
and can take the role of a magnum specially those 35 calibers w/o going crazy with recoil.

Those are super popular to hunt anything from a deer or black bear all the way to a moose or a grizzly. Some might say they are not
good enough for the largest animals but then ask some professional hunters from the old school and they will tell you otherwise
specially the 35 winchester or whelen. It doens't get easier or cheaper to have amazing killing power.

For long range is a different story. One needs to put heavy rounds far away so we need more fuel. Again, it depends
on what wants to do at long range. a small goat is not the same as a moose.

In the firearms and ballistics world it is always about a trade off of some sort no matter what.

The 7mm/08 is the best balanced round for anything. But the 308 will do the same in most cases only the 7mm is more
versatile and ballistically superior to both the 308 and the 6.5mm cartriges. Specially if one reloads one can make amazing
things with both the 7mm and the 308.

Hard to find arguments against the 308 or 7mm/08 other than fashion and perhaps someone who already has other calibers and wants to keep everything in the same bore in order to share bullets.

 

[john156cm]

yes the win mag shooting heavy rounds like 200gr will make your molars rattle. I am a big guy and have to brace myself.
I shot truck loads of 308 in the service and I am ok with it but when you step up in larger cases even the same cases but
in heavier rounds like the 358 winchester( child of the 308) and 35 whelen (child of 30-06) you have to prepare yourself
for the extra recoil. BTW those above are amazing rounds any of them in 30 or 35 calibers. Affordable, accurate, popular
and can take the role of a magnum specially those 35 calibers w/o going crazy with recoil.

Those are super popular to hunt anything from a deer or black bear all the way to a moose or a grizzly. Some might say they are not
good enough for the largest animals but then ask some professional hunters from the old school and they will tell you otherwise
specially the 35 winchester or whelen. It doens't get easier or cheaper to have amazing killing power.

For long range is a different story. One needs to put heavy rounds far away so we need more fuel. Again, it depends
on what wants to do at long range. a small goat is not the same as a moose.

In the firearms and ballistics world it is always about a trade off of some sort no matter what.

The 7mm/08 is the best balanced round for anything. But the 308 will do the same in most cases only the 7mm is more
versatile and ballistically superior to both the 308 and the 6.5mm cartriges. Specially if one reloads one can make amazing
things with both the 7mm and the 308.

Hard to find arguments against the 308 or 7mm/08 other than fashion and perhaps someone who already has other calibers and wants to keep everything in the same bore in order to share bullets.

When it is time for something to buy, I will definitely look into what it is I want to do. Years back I wanted a 50cal just to have in my arsenal. Im a smaller guy around the 185lb. mark and think I would like something with legs instead of trying to hold it standing upright but maybe its just a newbie thing and I'm being silly lol. Living where I do, long range hunting isn't gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[meketrefe]

When it is time for something to buy, I will definitely look into what it is I want to do. Years back I wanted a 50cal just to have in my arsenal. Im a smaller guy around the 185lb. mark and think I would like something with legs instead of trying to hold it standing upright but maybe its just a newbie thing and I'm being silly lol. Living where I do, long range hunting isn't gonna happen anytime soon.

Like I said, it is hard to find an argument to avoid the 308 or the 7mm/08.

I don't watch a lot of youtube because of all the BS people post but we had fun with this guy
doing his own MacGyver project. He does things we cannot totally agree with like the trigger job and the first scope he got
but he goes through some of the fundamentals and the overall reasoning and directives are actually well founded directives.

I am not suggesting buy an axis, the savage 10 is a much better platform for anything these days but this is a good video
series to explain some basic concepts to consider by new folks and folks on a budget.

It is all in the details.

 

[john156cm]

Like I said, it is hard to find an argument to avoid the 308 or the 7mm/08.

I don't watch a lot of youtube because of all the BS people post but we had fun with this guy
doing his own MacGyver project. He does things we cannot totally agree with like the trigger job and the first scope he got
but he goes through some of the fundamentals and the overall reasoning and directives are actually well founded directives.

I am not suggesting buy an axis, the savage 10 is a much better platform for anything these days but this is a good video
series to explain some basic concepts to consider by new folks and folks on a budget.

It is all in the details.

Very good intro for me. Thank you and maybe build a long range competition gun. Possibilities are endless

 

[meketrefe]

Very good intro for me. Thank you and maybe build a long range competition gun. Possibilities are endless

I thought he did a good job to introduce the concepts to the new shooters and average working man who wants to get
into shooting.
The internal ballistics and mechanics are very simple for people who have already an understanding of mechanics and structural
stuff.
The external ballistics gets a bit more complicated as it requires some study of bullets, trajectories and then lots of practice.

If you need anything lets us know. We have lots of information in terms of calibers tested, bullets and loads.

The thing today one doesn't need to spend an eye to get a very accurate starter setup. I mentioned savage because they
probably have the best value for the money out of the box. Their accustock is actually pretty decent for a factory stock
whereas all the rifles including the axis and other entry models in all brands are really crappy and intended for hunting
in the woods and not precission.

The axis has two model 10 variants, the Precision carbine and the predator (not the XP) that come with the accustock and
produce match like results for around $700 or so.

Of course add a nice rail, scope and rings and you are doubling that but it is not like is going to bankrupt anyone.

The reason I like the 308 and 7mm/08 as well as the 358 winchester is because all come from the same brass (308 cases) so
by having lots of once fired recycled or budget 308 brass I already have the brass and primers that are the common components
to get started on a budget but can produce match winning results with the right rifle and the right shooting experience.

I rather to budget accurate yet affordable and somewhat pleasant to shoot rounds so I can shoot more and when one shoots
more, one gets better. The 7mm and 30 caliber allow you to do that on a very nice budget with the option to get cheap
ammo for screwing around like shooting steel, squirrels or varmints at long range. Having surplus service ammo on hand
is a huge plus.

On the compact rounds the same can be said of teh 223 and one could use these cases to reload for the 6x45 or the 6mm TCU
that are super accurate and so simple and budget friendly a cave man can do them. Also amazing AR15 rounds both of them
with teh edge to the 6mm for hunting because of the great 6mm bullet selection between 80 and 100gr for white tail
and black bears.

The 6x45 and TCU are so affordable and so capable that can reach 1000 yards supersonic with some beans still left in them.

If we were to improve the 223 this would be so easy that it is painful to even think why our service round is not a 6mm already.

Then the 223 would be even more popular than what already is.

The 6mm is a shooters bore. So many records have been achieved with this bore. look for my threads on these calibers
that I have tested. Although after the photo-bucket fiasco we lost a lot of pictures so we might have to fix those threads.

 

[meketrefe]

Bergara is possibly the best value along with some o the savage.
Bergara makes a Remington 700 action the way Remington should have made it.
It beats the factory remington at everything. Some improvements are only found in rifles costing $3K or more but Bergara is 1/3rd of the cost.

 

[john156cm]

I thought he did a good job to introduce the concepts to the new shooters and average working man who wants to get
into shooting.
The internal ballistics and mechanics are very simple for people who have already an understanding of mechanics and structural
stuff.
The external ballistics gets a bit more complicated as it requires some study of bullets, trajectories and then lots of practice.

If you need anything lets us know. We have lots of information in terms of calibers tested, bullets and loads.

The thing today one doesn't need to spend an eye to get a very accurate starter setup. I mentioned savage because they
probably have the best value for the money out of the box. Their accustock is actually pretty decent for a factory stock
whereas all the rifles including the axis and other entry models in all brands are really crappy and intended for hunting
in the woods and not precission.

The axis has two model 10 variants, the Precision carbine and the predator (not the XP) that come with the accustock and
produce match like results for around $700 or so.

Of course add a nice rail, scope and rings and you are doubling that but it is not like is going to bankrupt anyone.

The reason I like the 308 and 7mm/08 as well as the 358 winchester is because all come from the same brass (308 cases) so
by having lots of once fired recycled or budget 308 brass I already have the brass and primers that are the common components
to get started on a budget but can produce match winning results with the right rifle and the right shooting experience.

I rather to budget accurate yet affordable and somewhat pleasant to shoot rounds so I can shoot more and when one shoots
more, one gets better. The 7mm and 30 caliber allow you to do that on a very nice budget with the option to get cheap
ammo for screwing around like shooting steel, squirrels or varmints at long range. Having surplus service ammo on hand
is a huge plus.

On the compact rounds the same can be said of teh 223 and one could use these cases to reload for the 6x45 or the 6mm TCU
that are super accurate and so simple and budget friendly a cave man can do them. Also amazing AR15 rounds both of them
with teh edge to the 6mm for hunting because of the great 6mm bullet selection between 80 and 100gr for white tail
and black bears.

The 6x45 and TCU are so affordable and so capable that can reach 1000 yards supersonic with some beans still left in them.

If we were to improve the 223 this would be so easy that it is painful to even think why our service round is not a 6mm already.

Then the 223 would be even more popular than what already is.

The 6mm is a shooters bore. So many records have been achieved with this bore. look for my threads on these calibers
that I have tested. Although after the photo-bucket fiasco we lost a lot of pictures so we might have to fix those threads.

So much info and I now see how much learning is involved. But learning does bring one to appreciate the sport or hobby more.

 

[john156cm]

Bergara is possibly the best value along with some o the savage.
Bergara makes a Remington 700 action the way Remington should have made it.
It beats the factory remington at everything. Some improvements are only found in rifles costing $3K or more but Bergara is 1/3rd of the cost.

That is one nice looking rifle, nothing too fancy but a nice clean look and just add scope and off course legs. I'm sure my steadiness is only good for short distance. Now to decide how often I could possibly get out of the city to shoot.