Man killed in Penfield shooting accident was a longtime club member
- Thread starter reinhardt
- Start date
Probably a shadow 2.. that would be my guess
LMS
.357 mag
And I would suggest not posting any names.
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
that is information I got from a board member? I will correct the post, Im glad it was NOT RON, I know him, hes a great guy
I DELETED THE ORGINAL CONTENT, BUT I CAN'T DELETE QUOTED REPLIES, my sincere apologies
Thank you for removing the names.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
If that's how things went down I would be very interested in knowing how the drop safety failed.
Was there a mechanical problem with the gun ?
Did it land on something that somehow got inside the trigger guard ?
Something else ?
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
There are lots of highly modified "race" guns at these kind of matches. That's my guess.
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
I would like to apologize to everyone. It was insensitive of me to post who, I was told, the person was who was involved in this tragic accident. the info i got was from a board member, it was wrong and should not have said anything
my sincerest apologies.
my sincerest apologies.
I don't believe it was insensitive. As I also reside in Rochester and am a member of this forum and conversations herein, I assumed someone here may have further information regarding the incident. What you mentioned here , to me anyway, would be no different thay hearing it from any news outlet ( albeit I trust the information here vastly more). And as to who was involved and thier names, my only takeaway is that of sorrow for all involved, and dosen't change a thing. Additionally, you had only shared what you were told, no different than any other piece of information. Definitely no shade thrown.
Didn't someone say the gun was a CZ?
And i will guess if it was a CZ then it was probably a Shadow 2 which ARE NOT drop safe
And i will guess if it was a CZ then it was probably a Shadow 2 which ARE NOT drop safe
One more note- it's far from insensitive to share that a memorial will be held Wednesday for this individual at GCL. I don't know him but still feel compelled to attend for the loss of another enthusiast and pay my respects. I would ask that if you have further information regarding what time the memorial would be held it would be greatly appreciated.
Likewise
I have tried to stay out of this one but given some of the previous comments and speculation I have to say a few things.
I have been a Life member of USPSA since 1994. I played the game hard for a number of years. I went the Range Officer and then Chief Range Officer route. I have worked a lot of matches from club level on up and run countless numbers of shooters through courses of fire.
And I can say that the USPSA safety record is without compare. And that is exactly why shooters want to know - deserve to know - how the hell did this happen?
I have seen dropped guns at matches for various reasons. And typically the RO picks up the gun, makes sure it's safe, returns it to the shooter and either sends him home if it dropped during the course of fire or offers an admonition & an encouraging word if not.
But I have never seen one go off when it hit the deck. Don't recall ever hearing of it happening. And that is worth examining, in and of itself, the consequences of this particular incident aside for the moment.
What caused the gun to hit the deck? Was it totally a failure on the part of the shooter? I watched a shooter one time load and bring the gun to the holster, miss the holster completely, and just open his hand and let the gun fall.
Was it a failure or flaw on the part of the holster? I have an old Jerry Barnhart 1911 Hemisphere holster that has a slider for "locked" or "unlocked". When it is unlocked if you hit the butt of the gun from behind it will try to flip forward out of the holster. Hit it hard enough and it will.
Stuff happens when handling a gun sometimes. That's why we stress safety.
Now, why did the gun discharge when it hit the deck? Is there a design flaw with that particular model? If so, don't we all want to know what model that is? Or is it, as has been suggested, the gun had been modified in some way? Perhaps to defeat a safety feature? Like disabling the grip safety on a Series 70 1911. Again, these are things USPSA shooters will want to know to put their minds to rest - indeed I believe they deserve to know.
They want to know why and how it happened so they can deal with the reality the it actually DID happen and COULD happen again...... when they were on the range or holding the timer the next time. They need the reassurance that this incident was a complete aberration, something that will likely never happen again in their lifetime. They need to have no doubt as to the safety of the sport.
And part of what they want to know, what they need to know, is who was involved and what their level of experience is. Was the competitor a rookie and this can be explained away with a "The new guy fucked up" or is this a veteran that requires more introspection along the lines of "This goes to show it can happen to anyone"?
So the naming of names and, perhaps, a background of those involved will have to be part of the process. If not today then eventually.
In that vein, I will name a name.
John D. Koziol. USPSA Life member L2514.
I met John in 1991, I believe, when he attended an orientation event at the Canandaigua Sportsmans Club and introduced himself as my cousin. What???? Well, cousin-in-law.......... first cousin of my wife.
We shot NRA Action Pistol together, worked the matches, served on the Board of Directors. We moved over to IPSC (USPSA) in 1994 and became Life members together. He, too, followed that RO / CRO path and we worked a lot of matches together over the years.
While I kind of burned out and took a few years off entirely, John backed off some but kept shooting the game. He never made it out of C class and didn't care. He was having fun. He hooked up with GCL and poured himself into that club just as he had done with Canandaigua.
When I got back into shooting, along with my son, I found John had become the Section Coordinator for the Eastern Lakes Section and had gotten re-certified as a Range Officer. He gave as much as he got from the sport, the clubs, and his fellow shooters........... and he got a lot. He loved it all.
What it comes down to is regardless of how well or, even if at all, those questions we all have are answered a great guy who was a supporter and contributor 'til his dying breath is now gone in a tragic accident. He might have been a C class shooter but he was a Grand Master in many other ways.
And I suppose nothing else really matters. A lot of people are gonna miss him.
I have been a Life member of USPSA since 1994. I played the game hard for a number of years. I went the Range Officer and then Chief Range Officer route. I have worked a lot of matches from club level on up and run countless numbers of shooters through courses of fire.
And I can say that the USPSA safety record is without compare. And that is exactly why shooters want to know - deserve to know - how the hell did this happen?
I have seen dropped guns at matches for various reasons. And typically the RO picks up the gun, makes sure it's safe, returns it to the shooter and either sends him home if it dropped during the course of fire or offers an admonition & an encouraging word if not.
But I have never seen one go off when it hit the deck. Don't recall ever hearing of it happening. And that is worth examining, in and of itself, the consequences of this particular incident aside for the moment.
What caused the gun to hit the deck? Was it totally a failure on the part of the shooter? I watched a shooter one time load and bring the gun to the holster, miss the holster completely, and just open his hand and let the gun fall.
Was it a failure or flaw on the part of the holster? I have an old Jerry Barnhart 1911 Hemisphere holster that has a slider for "locked" or "unlocked". When it is unlocked if you hit the butt of the gun from behind it will try to flip forward out of the holster. Hit it hard enough and it will.
Stuff happens when handling a gun sometimes. That's why we stress safety.
Now, why did the gun discharge when it hit the deck? Is there a design flaw with that particular model? If so, don't we all want to know what model that is? Or is it, as has been suggested, the gun had been modified in some way? Perhaps to defeat a safety feature? Like disabling the grip safety on a Series 70 1911. Again, these are things USPSA shooters will want to know to put their minds to rest - indeed I believe they deserve to know.
They want to know why and how it happened so they can deal with the reality the it actually DID happen and COULD happen again...... when they were on the range or holding the timer the next time. They need the reassurance that this incident was a complete aberration, something that will likely never happen again in their lifetime. They need to have no doubt as to the safety of the sport.
And part of what they want to know, what they need to know, is who was involved and what their level of experience is. Was the competitor a rookie and this can be explained away with a "The new guy fucked up" or is this a veteran that requires more introspection along the lines of "This goes to show it can happen to anyone"?
So the naming of names and, perhaps, a background of those involved will have to be part of the process. If not today then eventually.
In that vein, I will name a name.
John D. Koziol. USPSA Life member L2514.
I met John in 1991, I believe, when he attended an orientation event at the Canandaigua Sportsmans Club and introduced himself as my cousin. What???? Well, cousin-in-law.......... first cousin of my wife.
We shot NRA Action Pistol together, worked the matches, served on the Board of Directors. We moved over to IPSC (USPSA) in 1994 and became Life members together. He, too, followed that RO / CRO path and we worked a lot of matches together over the years.
While I kind of burned out and took a few years off entirely, John backed off some but kept shooting the game. He never made it out of C class and didn't care. He was having fun. He hooked up with GCL and poured himself into that club just as he had done with Canandaigua.
When I got back into shooting, along with my son, I found John had become the Section Coordinator for the Eastern Lakes Section and had gotten re-certified as a Range Officer. He gave as much as he got from the sport, the clubs, and his fellow shooters........... and he got a lot. He loved it all.
What it comes down to is regardless of how well or, even if at all, those questions we all have are answered a great guy who was a supporter and contributor 'til his dying breath is now gone in a tragic accident. He might have been a C class shooter but he was a Grand Master in many other ways.
And I suppose nothing else really matters. A lot of people are gonna miss him.
Well said tapper.
I totally understand everyone's desire to know all of the details of this event. I truely believe they will emerge as the shock starts to wear off for the folks that know the specifics and some time has passed.
I also believe that everyone here and in other forums this is being discussed in have nothing but the best intentions.
I totally understand everyone's desire to know all of the details of this event. I truely believe they will emerge as the shock starts to wear off for the folks that know the specifics and some time has passed.
I also believe that everyone here and in other forums this is being discussed in have nothing but the best intentions.
drowhawk
.44 mag
Well said. Scary that this happened. BUT, of all my hobbies, target shooting is the safest I practice. I worry far more about snowmobiling and being on the business side of a drunk's sled. Either way a reminder to keep control of your firearm at all times, loaded or unloaded.
Well said tap. I wish I could speak for us all, but alone I say my heart goes out for the loss of a family member, a tremendous advocate of the sport, and I'm sure that of a good friend.
Prayers to you and your family, him, his family, including the soul who still walks this earth but is forever carrying the weight of the accident within them. Thier lives course has been altered forever.
My sincerest and deepest condolences from my wife, family and i.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
If I had one bet to place all my money, all my possessions, and the lives of my family on......this would be it.
Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
my understanding is the entire thing is on tape. Both ranges now have cameras. maybe someday they may release it as a training video or something.
'this is truly sad and tragic, my deepest condolences to Johns and your family, RIP.
4 paws
.40 S&W
Well stated sir. Sorry for the loss of your friend, prayers for the family.
This is what I was afraid of, that I probably know that other guy as well. This is not a one sided tragedy. Don't know who it is and don't look forward to learning who it is because that is gonna hurt like hell, too. But thanks for the information.
Blimey
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Odds of gun firing when it hits the floor are miniscule. Odds of it then hitting somebody in a way to cause a death are also very small. Just terrible luck on both counts.
As for the GCL it has over 2000 members. The only people who want it shut down are probably the apartment buildings that are right next door--all built well after GCL open its doors--and busy bodies. It has a lot of old guys who've been in Penfield a while and are involved in the community to varying levels. No bullet left the premises so I don't see it getting shut down with over this; it's really an internal matter.
As for the GCL it has over 2000 members. The only people who want it shut down are probably the apartment buildings that are right next door--all built well after GCL open its doors--and busy bodies. It has a lot of old guys who've been in Penfield a while and are involved in the community to varying levels. No bullet left the premises so I don't see it getting shut down with over this; it's really an internal matter.
Is this open to non members? I am not a member but wish to pay my respects
Go ahead, I'm sure it is and you'll meet some good people there.
Glenn B
.308 Win
Your analysis quite possibly would be dead wrong, nothing rare about being both at the same time and as to it not involving negligence how did you arrive at that potential result? If the shooter unintentionally fumbled the gun, missed holstering it, and dropped it (as I think someone indicated), there was an accident as well as potential negligence on the users part. That is short of him having a medical reason or other interference beyond his control that caused him to drop it. If he was merely a bumbling type, guess what - NEGLIGENCE and ACCIDENT. There also may be negligence on the part of the manufacturer if the firearm is faulty. If it was not done purposefully then it was accidental regardless of a finding of negligence. Because you have one of those elements does not necessarily wipe out the other.
Glenn B
.308 Win
Sad indeed. Rest In Peace.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
You are correct that "accidental" and "negligent" are independent. Anything that was unintentional is an accident, which this obviously was. Any negligent discharge must also be accidental (if it wasn't unintentional then it wasn't negligent)
However when it comes to unintentional discharges of firearms we call them negligent when they are (and omit the accidental part) and call them accidental when there was no negligence.
Negligence implies that due care wasn't taken. It is quite possible to exercise due care and still have a rare event like this occur. There has been no suggestion of irresponsible gun handling, and in fact the exact opposite.
Just because you may be able to identify something in hindsight that *could* have been done differently to prevent the accident that doesn't imply negligence.
Negligence implies recklessness, not merely the lack of perfection.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
Much of that is the suburban creep around the club. People move into all the apartment buildings around there with full disclosure that there's a gun club next door, and still complain about the noise.
