Man Shot By Homeowner During Break-In Attempt
- Thread starter Dr. Evil
- Start date
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
carpediem
.338 Win Mag
They are leaving out that the guy who got shot was wearing frying pans as a sort of "armor" and had the home owner only had a .45, he wouldn't have lived to tell the tale.......
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
"If the attacker was hit in the lower back with a 9mm cartridge, and the man was still able to get away, is the cartridge adequate for home defense or, by extension, concealed carry?" ...
depends on how fast you can throw the cartridge i guess .. Right ??? ..
depends on how fast you can throw the cartridge i guess .. Right ??? ..
libertysnake
.338 Win Mag
My understanding is speed makes a big difference in armor penetration. So, if anything, wouldn’t 9mm stand MORE of a chance at penetration on those frying pans?
I don’t really see this as a reason to not use 9mm for concealed either way. With JHP, you can transfer most of that speed into stopping power anyway. So definitely not going to stop using it.
I don’t really see this as a reason to not use 9mm for concealed either way. With JHP, you can transfer most of that speed into stopping power anyway. So definitely not going to stop using it.
libertysnake
.338 Win Mag
I don't understand what is undesirable about having a reliable round, with easy followup shots, and reasonable penetration. It's a pretty standard round to carry.
You could try to make an argument otherwise, other than pointing and loling. That would actually be, well, informative.
I wasn't lol'ng about the advocacy of 9mm that's what I carry everyday. I was lol'ing at you saying stopping power and 9mm in the same statement. Shit id laugh at any standard choice carry round, .38, 9mm, .40, .357sig, .45acp
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You ever notice that since the inception of the hollow point, stopping power has been reduced? That goes for all calibers. 9mm and the .38 Special was never inadequate when carrying ball or flat pointed ammo.
@libertysnake , speed doesn't equate to stopping power. That's a myth. Check out the FBI Ballistics Manual linked below.
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
@libertysnake , speed doesn't equate to stopping power. That's a myth. Check out the FBI Ballistics Manual linked below.
http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
libertysnake
.338 Win Mag
Not saying it equates 1:1, but hollow point prevents the loss of some of that force that would otherwise be wasted from overpen in 9mm.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
There is no force wasted or put into a body. Well there is but it's very minimal. It's about the same force the shooter gets with recoil without a recoil spring. Ammo companies have exploited these energy numbers to sell ammunition.
Read the FBI Ballistics Manual. Also look at shootings where the victim survived and vitals weren't struck. What did that energy or force do? Absolutely nothing. All that happened was that a hole and channel was created through expansion that caused bleeding from tissue loss but didn't incapacitate the individual.
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This right here, do people not know 5th grade science,
Newton's third law of motion. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
To have the notion that a handgun has the power to knockdown say a 185lb grown man but leave the shooter without broken wrists is mindbogglin, same goes for magical "stopping power"
Speed doesn't = Stopping power? Hmmmmm, OK! Speed does = Energy, and the most energy wins! That said...
It all means nothing if you can't "place" your shot reliably! A .22 round in the "right" location will do as much as a .45 in the "right" place. Fact is too many people place importance on the intangibles rather than what is or isn't effective. If as much $ and time was spent on actual shooting and improving skills as buying gadgets or so called "better" ammo, then the ballistic discussions would disappear! There are no magic bullets, lol, pun intended.
; )
It all means nothing if you can't "place" your shot reliably! A .22 round in the "right" location will do as much as a .45 in the "right" place. Fact is too many people place importance on the intangibles rather than what is or isn't effective. If as much $ and time was spent on actual shooting and improving skills as buying gadgets or so called "better" ammo, then the ballistic discussions would disappear! There are no magic bullets, lol, pun intended.
; )
There is no such thing as stopping power with handguns. Handguns the only way to get a reliable stop is to be able to hit the CNS, or massive blood loss in a very short amount of time..
Oh as for your first statement, you can have a hyper fast round but you also NEED mass to go with it for that speed to add anything for increase in energy.
9mm going 2,000 fps but 50 grains is 444 ft/lbs
9mm going 1,150 fps at 124 grains is 364 ft/lbs
Only 80lbs difference.....
.22lr 40 gr 1070fps 100ft/lbs
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Correct but energy doesn't kill. At least with handgun energy numbers it doesn't. If it did than a shot to the gut in an immediate non vital area will kill a man instantly where he stands.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
"flat pointed ammo"
What?
What?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
44cal army colt black powder at 5 MPH and a wack to the head ... out cold 
..
..Typically, you embellish someone's post and add your own twist. Not sure why, but you do this constantly.
I didn't say anything about "killing", what I said was a .22 & .45 will do the same thing at the same location. Doesn't matter the slug size if it hits an organ or vital nerve center, the body reacts the same. So to quote you, a shot to the gut, is a shot to the gut...
Bleed out may be promoted with a larger hole, but then we could argue the smaller hole will be more plentiful as it is easier to shoot and follow up thereby resulting in more holes bleeding.
That said, ENERGY has a lot to do with "one shot stop" effect. If I had a choice knowing I would hit my POA with either a .22 or .45, I would take the .45 every time!
The two of you are like peas in a pod and for whatever reason love stroking each other in your posts.
So, you'll take a shot from a .22 and then one from a .45 and let me know which one felt better? Care to try?
You're another one taking liberties with what someone posts, changing it and trying to do what? 9mm is a shit round and a very bad example. But yeah, I'd take +80# of energy any day, however I can achieve it.
But by your example (?) I guess an AR Pistol chambered in .223 is useless? Yes, the mass of the .223 is evident in the energy, but the velocity has as much to do with the energy as the mass. And I can GUARANTEE a .223 round to the gut at pistol range/distance will absolutely be a one shot stopper!
Anyways, as I said in my post, I look at "ENERGY" but that too many people place importance on the intangibles... I have said always, in all my posts, that "Shot Placement" rules...
Thank you! Enjoy your day...
Disclosure: my carry is .357sig
libertysnake
.338 Win Mag
Let’s keep it civil gentlemen. We’re not liberals here.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
@Cooolone , you aren't really being a "Cool One." More like a "Hot head" actually is what I'm seeing. If you reread my post, I did say that you were correct and then I made my statement regarding energy to "Pistol Rounds" rather than rifle rounds.
.22 vs .45 isn't a really valid comparison since the .22 may have penetration issues so in that case the .45 wins. But if shot in the stomach with either a 9, .38, or .357 Sig or Magnum of the same diameter, neither will do more damage than the other assuming they penetrate the same depth destroying the same amount of tissue. The higher energy of the higher velocity pistol rounds is still too slow to make a difference in a body since the temporary stretch cavity isn't going to be beyond elasticity limits. That was my point.
With a high velocity rifle round, that is a different story all together. The greater the energy, the greater the temporary stretch cavity that stretches beyond elasticity creating bigger wounds.
.22 vs .45 isn't a really valid comparison since the .22 may have penetration issues so in that case the .45 wins. But if shot in the stomach with either a 9, .38, or .357 Sig or Magnum of the same diameter, neither will do more damage than the other assuming they penetrate the same depth destroying the same amount of tissue. The higher energy of the higher velocity pistol rounds is still too slow to make a difference in a body since the temporary stretch cavity isn't going to be beyond elasticity limits. That was my point.
With a high velocity rifle round, that is a different story all together. The greater the energy, the greater the temporary stretch cavity that stretches beyond elasticity creating bigger wounds.
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libertysnake
.338 Win Mag
My understanding of common rifle rounds is, unlike a .223 / 5.56 / 5.45, which all shatter at some point as part of their wound profile, the 7.62x39 of my AKs creates a larger cavity while not shattering and creating a larger exit wound. So different wound profile as a defensive round.
I’ve heard benefits to both rounds at sub 100 yards though. Thoughts?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I've seen gel tests that actually show the higher velocity .223 do more damage but fail to exit the block while the x39 always does exit but does less damage to the block.
But then you have higher grain .223 that go much slower and do less damage in gel but exit. So I guess it all depends on the round. Some are designed to not fragment at all.
libertysnake
.338 Win Mag
I’m not aware of any specialized x39, but I could be wrong.
Either way, at 100 yards, both get the job done. The only thing x39 does better at is maybe breaking down barriers to my knowledge.
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
love how you all are discussing ballistics .. love the numbers .. but the article said he was hit with a " CARTRIDGE " not a bullet ...snickers ..
@Willjr75 .. got me a button buck with the 270 win 40 yards away. little buck was looking away from me so short for rear of rib cage to opisite shoulder .. he turned some just as i shot ... in at the ribs .. broke 4 , skipped a few , broke 3 more , skipped a few , grazed the front 3 ribs up into the shoulder .. all on the same side of the deer .. no pass thru .. he walked 4 steps and fell over ...
reloads .. gameking 130gr spbt ... 4350 powder , loaded to 2900 fps per book , chrono showed them at 2850 ..
now if i would have just hit him with the cartridge i would i missed .. LOL ..
@Willjr75 .. got me a button buck with the 270 win 40 yards away. little buck was looking away from me so short for rear of rib cage to opisite shoulder .. he turned some just as i shot ... in at the ribs .. broke 4 , skipped a few , broke 3 more , skipped a few , grazed the front 3 ribs up into the shoulder .. all on the same side of the deer .. no pass thru .. he walked 4 steps and fell over ...
reloads .. gameking 130gr spbt ... 4350 powder , loaded to 2900 fps per book , chrono showed them at 2850 ..
now if i would have just hit him with the cartridge i would i missed .. LOL ..