Marcy Correction Guards on video released by Jumbo James brutalizing cuffed prisoner who later died.

spat

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GOPerfect said:
Should the inmates get some of their buddies on the outside to "issue corrections" to officers who are a bit overzealous too ?

This happens a lot!!!!!
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Apparently not as often as the officers do it on the inside.

Do officers adjust their behavior on the job to avoid it ?

Maybe we need even more, if the courts won't stop them someone needs do, right ?

The system is irreperably broken. You can either be part or the problem or walk away at this point.
 
spat

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stokes said:
Nobody says it "should" run this way, it is the way its run and has been forever. Prison is supposed to be punishment, the libs have turned it into a sleepaway camp years ago. 99% of the inmates in state prison are violent offenders, and they continue that behavior in prison. You want to go in there and control them? The fact that an inmate or CO isnt killed everyday shows that it works. More inmates are killed by other inmates and as a CO you have to deal with protecting them, as well as deal with protecting yourself from the 20 violent mutts in the room with you alone. There are a lot of times the line between inmate and guard becomes blurred, its just the nature of life behind bars. Unless you've been there, on either side, you have no clue what its like and your opinion means very little. As I said already, I dont condone what these guys did in this situation, with a cuffed offender. But you can be sure he wasnt beaten just because, he did something to bring it on.

Unfortunately it is the world as it is in prison. You got a way to improve it?
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Yea, the recipe to fix is is easy.

Walk away and let it burn to the ground.

Then we can build something where there is a meaningful difference between the guards and the inmates.
 
GOPerfect

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spat said:
Apparently not as often as the officers do it on the inside.

Do officers adjust their behavior on the job to avoid it ?

Maybe we need even more, if the courts won't stop them someone needs do, right ?

The system is irreperably broken. You can either be part or the problem or walk away at this point.
Click to expand...


You may be shocked to know how often it happens. I know many, to include myself that had insiders contact outsiders. It happens a lot.
 
stokes

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spat said:
Yea, the recipe to fix is is easy.

Walk away and let it burn to the ground.

Then we can build something where there is a meaningful difference between the guards and the inmates.
Click to expand...
I really dont see how that would help. Let it burn, they all escape and now you have no penal system. So they all run free. Its a dirty job but somebody has to do it. You keep saying just walk away, and many do, NYC Correction Dept was giving monthly exams, where most LE lists last 4 yrs. Thats how big a turnover they had. And they werent leaving because they had sympathy for the mutts, they get there and realize they dont have the ability to be hard enough to stay alive in the system.
"Then we can build something where there is a meaningful difference between the guards and the inmates". Easier said than done. As long as you have a system where you amass the worst, most violent people in society in one place you are going to have problems. I worked with a guy that came over from State Corrections, he worked 10 yrs on the SERT. Had pics from every call he went on, mostly inmate on inmate violence. He had 4 shoeboxes full of the most vile, inhuman shit you ever seen done to another human. I dont give a fuck how upright and walk the line you think you are when you see enough of that shit its just instinct that tells you its kill or be killed and its gonna affect the way you respond to things.
In my opinion, to improve the system, violent and recidivists go on lock down 23 hrs a day. The rest go back to the old chain gangs, out working all day will keep you out of trouble as you do your time. Its prison, you committed a crime, it aint supposed to be easy. When you make the decision to take the risk to do a crime you know the consequences going in, jail time and a loss of certain rights.
 
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stokes said:
I really dont see how that would help. Let it burn, they all escape and now you have no penal system. So they all run free. Its a dirty job but somebody has to do it. You keep saying just walk away, and many do, NYC Correction Dept was giving monthly exams, where most LE lists last 4 yrs. Thats how big a turnover they had. And they werent leaving because they had sympathy for the mutts, they get there and realize they dont have the ability to be hard enough to stay alive in the system.
"Then we can build something where there is a meaningful difference between the guards and the inmates". Easier said than done. As long as you have a system where you amass the worst, most violent people in society in one place you are going to have problems. I worked with a guy that came over from State Corrections, he worked 10 yrs on the SERT. Had pics from every call he went on, mostly inmate on inmate violence. He had 4 shoeboxes full of the most vile, inhuman shit you ever seen done to another human. I dont give a fuck how upright and walk the line you think you are when you see enough of that shit its just instinct that tells you its kill or be killed and its gonna affect the way you respond to things.
In my opinion, to improve the system, violent and recidivists go on lock down 23 hrs a day. The rest go back to the old chain gangs, out working all day will keep you out of trouble as you do your time. Its prison, you committed a crime, it aint supposed to be easy. When you make the decision to take the risk to do a crime you know the consequences going in, jail time and a loss of certain rights.
Click to expand...
I really don't think people can come close to understanding what it is like behind the walls.

No clue at all.

What is like getting hit with homemade C-4 on a weekly basis. Officers being lit on fire while they make rounds in the dead of the night.

No clue at all.
 
tirwin1

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How many were aware of this story:

nypost.com

Ohio corrections officer killed during inmate assault Christmas morning: ‘Made the ultimate sacrifice’

The Ohio State Patrol identified Officer Andrew Lansing’s alleged killer as Rashawn Cannon.
nypost.com nypost.com

Perhaps it's because it's an OH story while the prisoner death is a NY story. I think there is a lot that goes on in prisons that the typical middle class law abiding citizen is ignorant of. My sense is the level of brutality is beyond what the average person can comprehend. There are few disincentives to misbehavior on the prison population. They are already in jail for years - what else do they have to lose? Yet they are guarded by people with families who are supposed to follow rules of behavior. If they get caught there lives are going to be ruined. If they don't show toughness every day is a nightmare waiting to happen. I think this means the entire concept of prison needs to be rethought. If all we are doing is holding people that could become violent at a moments notice we should just execute them all now. I don't know what the answer is but a system that results in 4 guards beating a prisoner to death is not one that can or should be maintained.
 
GOPerfect

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tirwin1 said:
How many were aware of this story:

nypost.com

Ohio corrections officer killed during inmate assault Christmas morning: ‘Made the ultimate sacrifice’

The Ohio State Patrol identified Officer Andrew Lansing’s alleged killer as Rashawn Cannon.
nypost.com nypost.com

Perhaps it's because it's an OH story while the prisoner death is a NY story. I think there is a lot that goes on in prisons that the typical middle class law abiding citizen is ignorant of. My sense is the level of brutality is beyond what the average person can comprehend. There are few disincentives to misbehavior on the prison population. They are already in jail for years - what else do they have to lose? Yet they are guarded by people with families who are supposed to follow rules of behavior. If they get caught there lives are going to be ruined. If they don't show toughness every day is a nightmare waiting to happen. I think this means the entire concept of prison needs to be rethought. If all we are doing is holding people that could become violent at a moments notice we should just execute them all now. I don't know what the answer is but a system that results in 4 guards beating a prisoner to death is not one that can or should be maintained.
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Thank you
 
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tirwin1 said:
If all we are doing is holding people that could become violent at a moments notice we should just execute them all now. I don't know what the answer is but a system that results in 4 guards beating a prisoner to death is not one that can or should be maintained.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, the prison system is mostly a failure, The Roman empire, the Ottoman empire controlled vast areas of land , and they didnt have a large scale prison system . What they did have , and worked well was corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was extremely effective in changing the mindset and attitude of criminals, repeat offenders were almost unheard of. the system of corporal punishment was effective it worked for thousands of years . It was quick,brutal and effective. If you committed a crime worthy of it , you would not commit another crime right way, because you couldn't , You would be in bed 3 weeks recovering , and if you did, the punishment was worse than the first time .

We have a subculture in the US , where the prison system is considered by criminals to be a rite of passage to man hood , they go to jail and see old friends and relatives and form a bond with those people , make friends, introduced to new people , learn the system , They are ingrained with a new philosophy of life. Back on the street it becomes an equivalent to a service ribbon , they are given respect for time served.

Getting your ass beat and being flogged with a cat of nine tails has a different effect.
 
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Anyone local to the Marcy area just keep an eye out. Hearing from local sources (not social media gossip) that there are some "protests" planned. The kind of protests where police presence is high around the River Rd area. Probably has been for some time. I can only imagine that if enough "protestors" are outside it may spark something inside. Could all be malarkey, but better safe than sorry. We know what happened with George Floyd..and this is 10x worse.
 
spat

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stokes said:
I really dont see how that would help. Let it burn, they all escape and now you have no penal system. So they all run free. Its a dirty job but somebody has to do it. You keep saying just walk away, and many do, NYC Correction Dept was giving monthly exams, where most LE lists last 4 yrs. Thats how big a turnover they had. And they werent leaving because they had sympathy for the mutts, they get there and realize they dont have the ability to be hard enough to stay alive in the system.
"Then we can build something where there is a meaningful difference between the guards and the inmates". Easier said than done. As long as you have a system where you amass the worst, most violent people in society in one place you are going to have problems. I worked with a guy that came over from State Corrections, he worked 10 yrs on the SERT. Had pics from every call he went on, mostly inmate on inmate violence. He had 4 shoeboxes full of the most vile, inhuman shit you ever seen done to another human. I dont give a fuck how upright and walk the line you think you are when you see enough of that shit its just instinct that tells you its kill or be killed and its gonna affect the way you respond to things.
In my opinion, to improve the system, violent and recidivists go on lock down 23 hrs a day. The rest go back to the old chain gangs, out working all day will keep you out of trouble as you do your time. Its prison, you committed a crime, it aint supposed to be easy. When you make the decision to take the risk to do a crime you know the consequences going in, jail time and a loss of certain rights.
Click to expand...
If prison was properly conducted there wouldn't *be* opportunities for inmate on inmate violence, and probably very little opportunity for inmate in officer violence.

Sure, maybe you have some low security prisons for the white collar guys, but anyone violent just doesn't get to hang out in a room with dozens of other inmates.

We have a major problem because of the scale we operate at.

If we had 10% as many inmates we could treat all the potentially violent ones like it was supermax. That would make it a much greater deterrent too.

Getting rid of any crimes that have the word "possession" in them would be a great start.

And of course if criminals spend years locked away in real prison, then it would be a much bigger deterrant too.

If you spend 5 years in supermax for robbing a 7-11, a lot fewer 7-11s would get robbed and strange as it may seem, we would have a lot fewer people that needed to be locked up.

Our current overpopulation problem is largely *because* we let them out too fast.

Run the places like factories not dormitories.

Hell, we're at the point now where we could give all the guards robot avatars that they run remotely. What are they going to do, shiv a guard that's got 1/4" AR500 skin, weighs 1500lbs and has servo motors for muscles?
holdover said:
In my opinion, the prison system is mostly a failure, The Roman empire, the Ottoman empire controlled vast areas of land , and they didnt have a large scale prison system . What they did have , and worked well was corporal punishment. Corporal punishment was extremely effective in changing the mindset and attitude of criminals, repeat offenders were almost unheard of. the system of corporal punishment was effective it worked for thousands of years . It was quick,brutal and effective. If you committed a crime worthy of it , you would not commit another crime right way, because you couldn't , You would be in bed 3 weeks recovering , and if you did, the punishment was worse than the first time .

We have a subculture in the US , where the prison system is considered by criminals to be a rite of passage to man hood , they go to jail and see old friends and relatives and form a bond with those people , make friends, introduced to new people , learn the system , They are ingrained with a new philosophy of life. Back on the street it becomes an equivalent to a service ribbon , they are given respect for time served.

Getting your ass beat and being flogged with a cat of nine tails has a different effect.
Click to expand...
We have ended up with so much prison because people have become too squeamish.

Why they think taking years of a man's life is "less cruel" than just beating his ass I don't know.

IMHO, prison shouldn't be used as a punishment at all. It should only be used to sequester people who can't be trusted in society, and even then, only if you have an expectation that they will get better.

If they're not going to get better (or as we have now, typically get worse), then just execute them.

Especially long prison sentences make no sense. "This 20 something guy has anger and impulse control issues that make him too dangerous to walk free, let's lock him up for 30 years and see if it gets better" is just an asinine concept.
 
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gun_slinger_boy said:
Decades is far too conservative. More like since there was a such thing as prisoners. We're seeing a mere fraction of a percent of this behavior only because of cameras. Think about outside of the prison even. Before cameras. It's very telling that these types KNOW that there are cameras everywhere now and still choose to conduct themselves like this.
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I am sure you are correct. I said decades because that time span back in history encompasses the times in which I witnessed such behavior first hand. Not from hearsay or from " well I know a guy who's brother in law was told by his barber etc.
 
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GOPerfect said:
Under New York law, that type of punishment is no longer allowed. Used to be able to lock them in for 23 hours per day, the Dems in NY took that away. As a matter of fact, the elected took away almost all forms of discipline in prisons and jails.
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That would be the HALT act, what my final college paper was on.
 
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GOPerfect said:
I really don't think people can come close to understanding what it is like behind the walls.

No clue at all.

What is like getting hit with homemade C-4 on a weekly basis. Officers being lit on fire while they make rounds in the dead of the night.

No clue at all.
Click to expand...
I worked as an over the road service tech. For more than 15 years before I took over running the dept. The NYS prison system was one of my accounts for 10 of those years. I met and spoke with dozens of CO’s over those years about prison life in some of the most infamous prisons in NY. I’ve been behind the walls many times of many maximum state facilities to incl. Auburn, Attica, Marcy , the prison for the criminally insane on the Marcy prison campus, a few that have long since been closed as well as the women's maximum prison facility in Albion NY. Of ALL the max. Prison facilities that I’ve ever been in the Women’s max. facility in Albion always scare the shit out of me the most. Even though you were instructed to never engage in conversation with a con, that never stopped them from talking at you and those women were ruthless fucks that made no bones about telling you that they had nothing to lose and how badly they wanted to brutalize you.
 
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