Like I said the conditions in prison are unknown to most people. The guards should not have beaten this guy to death but how bad are the conditions that such an assault was considered necessary and proper? No inmate should be beaten to death. But no corrections employees should be subject to violence in the first place. Eliminate the danger to guards and there won't be any more prisoner deaths.
Marcy Correction Guards on video released by Jumbo James brutalizing cuffed prisoner who died.
- Thread starter VietnamEraVet
- Start date
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
Obviously this is a bad situation where a prisoner died because some COs went too far.
Heres a question though. When you have someone who is a repeat violent offender, against COs and other/or other inmates, what is to be done about it? Charge, try, convict? Add to their prison sentence? They've already proven the current situation is ineffective at changing their behavior. Adding 3 years will accomplish...?
Just like parenting, once you show weakness, once you show that if someone disregards your orders long enough you'll give up and give in...thats it. You're fucking finished and your authority has vaporized.
Prisons are not nice places where things go according to plan. And idiot bleeding heart politicians who know nothing about what they're legislating make it worse. COs and LEOs are too often put into impossible situations where NO MATTER WHAT they do, its gonna be wrong.
Heres a question though. When you have someone who is a repeat violent offender, against COs and other/or other inmates, what is to be done about it? Charge, try, convict? Add to their prison sentence? They've already proven the current situation is ineffective at changing their behavior. Adding 3 years will accomplish...?
Just like parenting, once you show weakness, once you show that if someone disregards your orders long enough you'll give up and give in...thats it. You're fucking finished and your authority has vaporized.
Prisons are not nice places where things go according to plan. And idiot bleeding heart politicians who know nothing about what they're legislating make it worse. COs and LEOs are too often put into impossible situations where NO MATTER WHAT they do, its gonna be wrong.
ManualF150
.308 Win
I'll add, anyone who does that kind of job also knows the inherent risks.
Just like my job, I work with dangerous equipment. I know and understand that something can happen to the point of being killed, even by another coworker, or someone out driving. Or working outside when it's -20F and I can't feel anything. However, it's all part of the job - risk. There are times I wake up and ask myself, why am I not doing a desk job in a cozy office suite?
However the key piece of information: NO one is telling me that I need to work that job.
Anyone who gets beat up in a prison, should not be surprised. It's all part of the job.
Can't handle getting your arm shanked up by a prisoner? Then leave, go find another job with less risk. No one is forcing you to work there.
I just add this near exact conversation with a former co-worker yesterday.
I agree. 100%.
ManualF150
.308 Win
I also found there is usually another side to why folks stay at these jobs. One or more of three things... money, benefits, or bragging rights.
I find a lot of these folks like the bragging rights about the overtime (money) and bragging rights (get to carry a gun with less restrictions).
It's understandable that people need to work these prisons, but I honestly believe that the people they need for them should not complain when something awful happens to them, even if its routinely. After all, they signed up to work at a prison. No one is holding a gun to their head every morning saying you need to work this job or else.
The same can go for folks that work in psychological wards. I get it, really tough job. But you signed up for it.
I also found there is usually another side to why folks stay at these jobs. One or more of three things... money, benefits, or bragging rights.
I find a lot of these folks like the bragging rights about the overtime (money) and bragging rights (get to carry a gun with less restrictions).
It's understandable that people need to work these prisons, but I honestly believe that the people they need for them should not complain when something awful happens to them, even if its routinely. After all, they signed up to work at a prison. No one is holding a gun to their head every morning saying you need to work this job or else.
The same can go for folks that work in psychological wards. I get it, really tough job. But you signed up for it.
I always wanted to be a cop. When the days finally hit, I was beyond happy. Almost cried to be honest.
I made a shit ton of money, especially with the OT. After a few years, the OT was not worth the time, I barely did any of it.
Very few of the people that I worked with even knew they had special gun rights. Yes, ignorance of laws is high in LE.
There were aspects of the job that I was not really aware of prior to taking the job, some of it, you learn as you go.
Getting hit in the face with a small bucket of shit, never was on my cop bingo card.
I never really complained about what I went through. I am sad that my career was cut short.
No one thinks they are going to be raped due to a job though.
Not too many professions out there that you need to worry about your family being attacked because of what you do for a living.
Most of the stuff though, kind of expected.
When I enlisted in the Army, I knew for a fact I was going to war. I knew I may not come home.
ManualF150
.308 Win
You hit the nail on the head!
If I worked in a prison, and I had this situation happen, I'd tell my coworkers to get a medical professional in and give them a sedative/tranquilizer. Even if I had to grab my coworkers and pull them off the prisoner.
I had the fun experience doing contracting work in a psych ward in Ohio about 7 years ago, and similar instances would occur. One shot of some good stuff (anywhere in their body) makes them fall asleep quick. No harm, just a good sleep so the staff re-assess the situation without risk. That video reminded me so much of that experience watching something similar to that effect happen, even better, the person was handcuffed. Lots of the stuff I saw, they were not tied up. Flailing their arms and legs all over the damn place, grabbing people, trying to poke eyes out, etc, etc.
The situation could've been avoided, but too late now... no one can call those actions back. Time to move on and they can learn from it.
It's a fair point. However I don't think anyone should expect they could be killed.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The system is broken.
It will not get fixed if people keep trying to band aid it together.
I am not saying this guy didn't deserve a beating.
I am saying that lowing guards to determine who needs a beating is *more* dangerous for society than the most psychotic inmate.
Sure, it may be effective, and it may be important, it is has side effects that are just too dangerous to allow it to continue.
A good analogy is asbestos. It's a fantastic insulator and fireproofer. There really isn't something better. And those are both critical for society.
But it also has a very dangerous side effect, and we have decided that the danger from the side effect is greater than the danger of using more flammable insulation.
If a few more buildings burn down because of it, that's a smaller price than the cancer.
Letting cops and guards dispense their own justice because the courts won't do it is *more* dangerous than even letting all the inmates out.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
As long as there is a human element involved, there will never be a perfect solution.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Perfect is the enemy of good enough.
But what we have now is the antithesis of "good enough".
The system is *supposed* to be split into 3 functions, each worked by a different independent group.
But the legislature and the courts have decided to abandon their entire job.
And the executive thinks this means they need to do it all.
But it was split in 3 for a reason. Having all three functions performed by the same group inevitably leads to tyranny. Whether it's a sudden collapse, or a slow ratcheting descent, the end result is inevitable.
The only solution for the executive is go *stop* doing the job of the courts and legislature. Yes things will get bad. They have to. Only once it gets bad enough will the other 2 branches start doing their job.
All the people whining about "you don't know how bad it is" and "we have to do this, we have no choice" just don't get the point.
It *has* to get a lot worse before it will get fixed. You're not helping by trying to hold it together.
Yep, a lot of people will probably die, but that's the *least* of our worries long term.
stokes
.338 Win Mag
Whining? Who the fuck is whining? Besides you whining about how broken the system is, yet your only solution is to burn it down. The system is what we have and have had for hundreds of years. It is a punitive system, not a libtard rehab system as they have been trying to make it. It is supposed to be a deterrent, dont want to die at the hands of another inmate or over zealous CO? Dont go to jail. Its really quite simple
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The system we have today doesn't even resemble what we had just a few decades ago. It has not been around for hundreds of years.
And you guys *are* whining about "oh, you don't know how bad these guys are" and "if we don't break the law all the time the world's going to end".
If you're going to break the law, you don't get to claim you're enforcing it while doing it.
Is some scumbag needs to get his ass beat, that's a job for the courts to decide. As soon as officers take it on themselves, then they are criminals, every bit as bad as the ones they are locking up.
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
I guess you have no knowledge of the penal system history in the US?
I bet the days on Alcatraz were good times.
Time spent at places like Brushy Mountain Penitentiary were joyful times....
stokes
.338 Win Mag
You'll have to point out the post you quoted that from, I cant find it.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
They were nothing like what we have today, that's for sure.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Every post defending extrajudicial punishment and vigilantism.
If you're OK with officers beating guys "because they needed it", why not everyone else too ?
Why should only officers be allowed to do that ?
Some guy sleeping with your wife ? Get a couple buddies and break his legs. That sounds great, right ?
Some guy makes rude comments to your daughter, just knock his teeth out.
Far worse/
In one prison here in Tennessee, more than 10000 prisoners were murdered while the prison was open. One prison.
stokes
.338 Win Mag
Happens all the time. Seen it all my life.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Yes, but do the cops look the other way as "professional courtesy", or only of the perpetrator has a badge ?
You guys are under the illusion that police are there to protect the citizens from the criminals. That isn't the case at all. The whole "thin blue line" thing is complete fiction.
The guys on the street might *think* that's what they're doing, but it's not, and it's become more and more obvious as time goes on.
The job of police is to maintain government's monopoly on violence.
That's why states like California will let people shoplift with impunity, and will turn violent criminals back on the street. But if the shop owner decides to catch and "tune up" the shoplifter, they'll get the book thrown at them.
So, why would it be OK for cops to give someone some street justice, but not OK for anyone else to do it ?
spat
.700 Nitro Express
And far far fewer people in them because of it.
Punishment should be harsh, but it should be exactly as prescribed by law. It is an absolute perversion of justice to sentence someone to one thing, but subject them to a lot more with a wink and a nod.
dwa12479
.338 Win Mag
So I guess my question still stands.
You have an inmate in year 3 of a12 year sentence. Constantly uncooperative, attacks COs, other inmates, does heavy damage to them etc...
Whats the solution to get him under control? Add a few years to his sentence? Doesnt seem to be much of a deterrent at the moment.
You have an inmate in year 3 of a12 year sentence. Constantly uncooperative, attacks COs, other inmates, does heavy damage to them etc...
Whats the solution to get him under control? Add a few years to his sentence? Doesnt seem to be much of a deterrent at the moment.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Ship his ass to a higher security facility.
That's it.
Want to be a PITA for the guards, then enjoy supermax where they DGAF if you want to be a PITA or not, because you just can't.
He would still have all the same Rights and privileges at a regular Max.
NY politicians made sure of this.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Not true. They still have recreational time. They still have visitation rights. Programs are available.
You think they are locked in their cells all day?
Still have contact with other prisoners and guards.