Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
True. I guess if there were an "indent" in the neck the ball would shape that back to round. I dont know that it contacts on the up stroke since it's already expanded from firing. Will play around with this.
MY Reloading Adventure
- Thread starter Carlos Hathcock
- Start date
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
7.7 will be fine for lots of good bullets. The 115 dtacs will benefit from a 7.5 twist specially at long range closer to transsonic range. One needs to look at the xc chamber and match winning barrels to see what it takes to maximize the potential of these long bullets.
Yes. The expander button is the ultimate measure for the brass expansion on the upstroke. The neck tension is controlled by both the thickness of the brass at the neck, its hardness and elasticity and the expansion diameter left by the button.
Some Match grade dies offer different exchangable button sizes to adjust tension also depending on the bullets true diameter.
Some prefer floating expanders ad others the
Mandrel type.
This regarless if the die is full size or just neck sizing die for fireformed brass.
the key is consistency so neck turning might be needed.
Consistency here is key as it tends to impact consistent starting pressure that is key to consitent ignition and burn that is key to consistent speed spreads.
every stage has an impact on the next.
The best rounds are carbon copies of the one before and after.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Thanks again. Life getting in the way this month so hope to get back on track soon.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Am I missing something here? I've been thinking that maybe I'm not pushing shoulders back enough when sizing. I full length size each time and I've read the full vs bump opinions. Let's just say for now I'm full sizing.
As I think back I can remember firing some reloads which maybe didnt allow the bolt to close like butter. This leads me to believe one of two things. Either the case length is too long or the shoulder is too far forward. I size all my brass to specified length or 1-2 thou shorter. Rule of thumb as I understand it is set the sizing die to touch the plate then back off 1/4 to 1 full, depending on who you read.
So I did an experiment and set the die to touch and even to slightly over cam to make sure the case was going as deep as it could. When I compared it to a factory unfired round this was the result.
So I cant send the case and deeper to push the shoulder back. I've read some guys have different "height" shell holders but that's on single stage presses.
What am I missing here?
Cliff's:
Hornady 6mm Creed cases, once fired.
Hornady match grade full length die with neck bushing.
As I think back I can remember firing some reloads which maybe didnt allow the bolt to close like butter. This leads me to believe one of two things. Either the case length is too long or the shoulder is too far forward. I size all my brass to specified length or 1-2 thou shorter. Rule of thumb as I understand it is set the sizing die to touch the plate then back off 1/4 to 1 full, depending on who you read.
So I did an experiment and set the die to touch and even to slightly over cam to make sure the case was going as deep as it could. When I compared it to a factory unfired round this was the result.
So I cant send the case and deeper to push the shoulder back. I've read some guys have different "height" shell holders but that's on single stage presses.
What am I missing here?
Cliff's:
Hornady 6mm Creed cases, once fired.
Hornady match grade full length die with neck bushing.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
Besides the obvious length being a tiny bit too long. Are the cases (fired and factory) both hornady? One may be thicker than the other. Also, the outside chamfer may need to be done a little more. Try giving the outside of the neck a wee bit more chamfer and see if the stickiness goes away. If the reloaded cases are thicker than the factory you may have to ream the necks.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
More confusion. Got done busting my ass on my rental property batroom remodel and dragged my ass into the reloading cave.
Measured an unfired factory round. Zeroed our the caliper. Measured a case, resized. They're getting LONGER at the shoulder. Did 5 with all the same results and lengthening approx the same amount. I cant figure this out.
6.5 Grendel
Hornady Brass (once fired)
Full length Hornady die.
Measured an unfired factory round. Zeroed our the caliper. Measured a case, resized. They're getting LONGER at the shoulder. Did 5 with all the same results and lengthening approx the same amount. I cant figure this out.
6.5 Grendel
Hornady Brass (once fired)
Full length Hornady die.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Forget about hornady factory rounds. The ones sized with your dies chamber ok?
What is the difference?
I bet the difference is not more than 3 to 5 thousands.
What is the difference?
I bet the difference is not more than 3 to 5 thousands.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Photos say .003 on that particular one. Chambered one and bolt didn't close unless I "let it go" and slammed forward. Did not eject easily when I pulled the handle.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
ok. Got it.
Have you tried the same die in the single stage press? That tipe of minute difference can come from the shell plate in the progressive press.
With a regular press one can change shell holders / brands but with the progressive you have only one.
So the solution would be to try a different die or to shave a bit from the one you have.
But before doing that make sure the interference is just the case lenght at the shoulder and not something else like the diameter at the very shoulder.
So take a sized case and it some marker or candle smoke and see where it is making contact. Mark the neck and mounth too.
That way you know if you need to find a shorter die or shave from the one you got.
What brand of die is yours?
Makes sense?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Sorry, i noticed you already said hornady die.
Hummmm..... how about that, hornady screwijg up. ...because your prog. press is also the hornady one right?
I am not a huge fun of hornady dies.
perhapa you have a tight chamber and hornady actually makes ammo with a small from factor die to assure it works in all autoloaders and now yoi a re caugth in between.
Call them and explain and seeif thry have a tighter AR / autoloader die. But before make sure of the interferance points.
Hummmm..... how about that, hornady screwijg up. ...because your prog. press is also the hornady one right?
I am not a huge fun of hornady dies.
perhapa you have a tight chamber and hornady actually makes ammo with a small from factor die to assure it works in all autoloaders and now yoi a re caugth in between.
Call them and explain and seeif thry have a tighter AR / autoloader die. But before make sure of the interferance points.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Yes rcbs and redding for example have sets of competition shell holders with minute height changes from one to the next. It is an easy way to control base to shoulder length.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
All my dies are Hornady full length, match or custom. I've seen the option of different "height" shell holders, but toured right, only on single stage.
I've also had suggestions to "shave" the die base for deeper insertion. I shouldn't have to do that. I've got a bath remodel that's been soaking up my time like it's free so I haven't had much time. I'm going to sit down with this particular die, and others, and do some testing. I just wanted to see if I'm missing something simple.
I've seen those that are more about chamber fit than SAAMI spec and it makes sense. Other than .223, I don't have ammo that could run in different chambers. One of each kind of setup. It takes time to set up the whole gammet for each die to be evaluated.
With the cases I've been scotchbrighting, die contact is pretty easy to spot. I'll update when I have less scattered info. Thanks.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
As factory reamers are used up they get smaller. It doesnt take much to make a tight chamber that will obviously pass the no-go gauge check and the go check maybe never done. So when you get a chance take a good look at the chamber. Diameter at the shoulder and shoulder to body angle is where the reamers get most of the heat and wear cutting. Or a simple armorers error that should be catched later but maybe it didnt.
Good luck
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I may have made some positive progress this morning. I had a response on another forum where they suggested turning the die further DOWN in the press. I believe the explanation was the possibility of plate flex, and maybe the nature of LNL bushings, which by nature may have slight "slop".
Went another 1/8 to 1/4 turn past plate contact and wallah, shoulder going back. I bought a Wilson case gauge and I can now bring it back to OE spec. I guess I just assumed once you touched plate, that was it. Apparently not.
When I have more time, I'll be working to size cases to the chamber fit and not the case gauge so much. This may be the same solution for all my other dies / calibers I suspect.
I also took out the "ball" to see if it would still reshape dinged necks (because this exercise is on a gas gun) and to my surprise, brought them back to round. I will be investigating just how round the necks are without the ball.
Will also be working on getting into annealing soon as well.
Thanks for the responses and I'll update this hopefully tonight. Back to the bathroom project.
Went another 1/8 to 1/4 turn past plate contact and wallah, shoulder going back. I bought a Wilson case gauge and I can now bring it back to OE spec. I guess I just assumed once you touched plate, that was it. Apparently not.
When I have more time, I'll be working to size cases to the chamber fit and not the case gauge so much. This may be the same solution for all my other dies / calibers I suspect.
I also took out the "ball" to see if it would still reshape dinged necks (because this exercise is on a gas gun) and to my surprise, brought them back to round. I will be investigating just how round the necks are without the ball.
Will also be working on getting into annealing soon as well.
Thanks for the responses and I'll update this hopefully tonight. Back to the bathroom project.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
There is no flexing the plate. This means you were not really touching the plate when you though you were.
Just make sure you don't put too much torque into the whole arm and group but yes once you touch that is the maximum you
are going to get.
The bathroom looks great!
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Actually, on the multi station plate of the lock n load there is visible flexure. Prob not an issue on single action presses.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
It is the fact that the plate is floating and while it rides on the base it doesn't make 100% full contact.
It gives that perception since it rotates on an axle with one single screw but the actual plates are very rigid
for this press. I have two of these and one RCBS progressive and the hornady is the best in terms of overall rigidity
of the entire group.
Of course none can compare to a single press specially the redding big boss that is a beast for forming even the largest
magnums.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
What do you make of the white "residue" I'm seeing here? Preparing to clean after about 100 rounds. Have scoped the barrel before but never seen this?
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
Either oxidized lead or powder residue.
....or the gun caught the ick and is no good and you have to throw it out now.
Russ Woody
.45 acp
I would say lead but all I see you load up is all copper plated stuff.
Send me the gun. You can't have that in your arsenal. It might spread to other guns.
Send me the gun. You can't have that in your arsenal. It might spread to other guns.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Send me your address. I'll send you something.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Figured out something again I shouldve figured long ago. Removed the expander ball on my match bushing die. Ordered the bushing according to standard accepted method. Measured the inside neck diameter and it was about .003 smaller than the bullet. Had been sizing without the ball for about 100 rounds. Measured the ball and it was .002 smaller. Decided to test it and it definitely gave me better (lighter) neck tension than without. I can always order the next size up bushing too.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
That looks like good progress. If you can dial on the neck size wall then you might stick to that and turn necks in the future if needed.
Consistent neck tension is so important. I also use the crimp w or w/o cannelure but do not deform the bullet. Just put extra tension for uniformity.
Russ Woody
.45 acp
Send me your address. I'll send you something.
I had to give it a shot.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
So lemme post the dumb question. I seem to have noticed that both 6 and 6.5 creedmoor cases appear to be virtually identical. Suppose I wanted to neck down 6.5 cases for use in my 6. What say you?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
No problem. They will have to be trimmed and possibly neck turned too.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Cool. Thanks for the help.
Carlos Hathcock
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Hoping for a simple solution on this one. Cant count the number of firings on my Hornady brass but I'm guessing maybe 6-7 or more. Getting to where I can barely keep the primers in. I've already got some brand new starline brass coming tomorrow but I'd hate to toss these. No sign of wear at all, no split necks, very clean. Any ideas or is it time to stop being cheap?
Loose primer pockets are a sign of wear.
Toss in scrap bucket. Sell for scrap.
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
That's a sign that if you keep pushing it, you're going to get a broken case either in the rifle or in the sizing die.
Just for kicks, do a cut-away on the case and see how thick (or thin) the case wall is.