Need a little advice for sighting / accuracy issue at the range today

[JackNeat]

I just picked up a DJS9 ( 9MM AR “other” build ) and went to the range today. My BIL was with me and he had his Ruger mini14 so we went to the high caliber booths so I was shooting a little longer distance than I would have liked for the first day.

it was a disaster.. very sporadic bullet placement. It was dark and I was having trouble with iron sights and finding a good picturel. Tried my red dot also.. first shot went about 2 ft to the right of where I had the dot place. Adjusted twice and got some improvement within 6in but then shots were hard to locate. One of them actually went very high and I think it hit the ceiling tiles at the very back of the range, just above the paper targets. I saw debris fall and a puff of dust. I never got any consistency at all and some of the shots we couldn’t even see hit the paper with binocs.

I came home and started working with my laser bullet and sighted in both the irons and red dot to a fairly tight grouping on a paper target where I was placing sights and dot. I was only off by about 3in low and 2in right when I started checking iron. When I checked RD I was about 8in low and 5in left. At home I was only about 15yds so half the distance of the range. So I am going to go back to a different range Tuesday and match the distance. The range we were at today had no target movers and it was pretty dingy/dark...

I also shot my BIL Mini14 with a scope at the range today. With that I was in target and had groups of 2in at what I believe was 30yds. So I am not sure it was entirely me making some errors with my AR.

I was shooting Wolf Steel cased FMJ 115GR.

What could be possible causes or things to watch for when I go back to the range. Could there be an issue with the rifling of the barrel causing the bullets to fly wildly?

Tuesday I am going to start really close and just keep moving outward until I feel like I’m getting control ... or until I determine it could be an issue with the firearm.. which I am not sure is possible but maybe you guys have experienced something like this?

 

[Edwardteach72]

What distance were you shooting the AR9?

 

[JackNeat]

Around 30yds At the range.

 

[BDinPutnam]

How long is the barrel and what is the twist (which is more curiosity than anything)?

 

[JackNeat]

Barrel to the flash hider is 12.5.. I wasn’t sure if you include the flash hider in that. I don’t know the twist.. I will have to email them for that info. It’s not posted on their website,

 

[Edwardteach72]

Barrel to the flash hider is 12.5.. I wasn’t sure if you include the flash hider in that. I don’t know the twist.. I will have to email them for that info. It’s not posted on their website,

May be stamped on the barrel, if you can take off the handguard

 

[1075tech]

I was shooting Wolf Steel cased FMJ 115GR.

^^^ Try some better quality ammo. I know nothing of their 9mm. But, I know of several people who were getting horrible "groupings" with their 6.5 Grendel steel case. Mostly with lower quality barrels. The bullet is undersized. .262 instead of .264.

Pull one of your 9s and measure it.

 

[meketrefe]

Barrel to the flash hider is 12.5.. I wasn’t sure if you include the flash hider in that. I don’t know the twist.. I will have to email them for that info. It’s not posted on their website,

What type of threads and flash hider do you have?
Are you positive barrel is firm into the upper as well as the sights and optics?
At 30 yards if you line up the upper and center the target on the bore looking through the bore and put the red dot 2 inches high / or so where the
site picture is in the center of the bore you should be getting impact in a 6 inches diameter and quite possibly less with the first few shots being
off the target but grouping somewhere slightly high or to the side but with the groups not being that far.
So, something is off here that is why we are asking about the, threads, flash hider, barrel , ammo, etc...
But do not discard the obvious neither like installation and sights / optics.
And the most important thing go when there is good light out so you can see well what you are shooting at.

To get the impacts on the target, find your target through the bore and w/o moving the rifle (using a sandbag or something) alternate quickly
looking between bore and sights/scope and they should be matching. Don't even worry about the precise poi just to put them on the actual target.
Alternate up and down to make them match...

 

[JackNeat]

I honestly don't know what type of flash hider is attached. Looks like standard A2 type from images I just looked around at for a match.

I'll follow up with an image of the muzzle end for a close up. I just noticed a slight offset appearance which may or may not be normal?

Everything feels and appears to be solid. There is a ever so slight looseness between the upper/lower but from what I have read, that is completely normal and to be expected... very slight.


I'm going to see if I can buy a box of better quality 9mm at the range Tuesday. I basically just bought what was available at the gun store given the way things are right now. I'm hoping it was user error in the poor lighting of the range with all black surfaces around the side walls... it was like going into an old NYC rock club honestly.

 

[JackNeat]

Here are closeups of the muzzle/flash hider. First is left side barrel

This is the top and you can see the offset between the barrel muzzle and flash hider... it actually looks like the muzzle device is in good alignment but the washer is what's offset... if that is normal, I guess nothing to consider.


The right side and bottom side have the same appearance just mirror... so the bottom shows the offset to the left side of the image.

 

[Chevusa]

"Ask a lawyer"

 

[JackNeat]

Regarding the installation of the sights and RD... both are not super high quality but seem accurate enough while zeroing with the laser bullet this afternoon. I know live fire is likely adding all the variables that need to be considered... mainly recoil. The RD was on my Shotgun and has held up very well during two OFT defensive shotgun classes so it might be safe to say recoil doesn't effect it and it holds zero just fine.

I also want to post this image from the lasrX session because I think this shows I am probably not pulling the gun when squeezing the trigger and I'm able to hold it fairly steady while aiming.. again, live fire adds in additional variables and I am not saying something isn't going wrong there. This was from about 30ft back and offhand shooting.

Thanks for all these points to check on... keep them coming if something comes to mind. I can't tell you how disappointing it was to go the range today and not have anything to smile about. But, I'm hopefully learning something here as I attempt to work it all out.

 

[meketrefe]

Here are closeups of the muzzle/flash hider. First is left side barrel
View attachment 84003
This is the top and you can see the offset between the barrel muzzle and flash hider... it actually looks like the muzzle device is in good alignment but the washer is what's offset... if that is normal, I guess nothing to consider.
View attachment 84004

The right side and bottom side have the same appearance just mirror... so the bottom shows the offset to the left side of the image.

lasrX or bores might do something or not depending if everything is true including the devices (some cheap ones) in the first place.

I have seen some hack jobs in the past so make sure that flash-hider is reamed so the bullet is not able to even remotely
brush the flash-hider that if it is a mil spec is not for this type of caliber in the first place so I suspect it is either a copy or
it has been reamed. I have seen this situation before because of the flashider was the worng one, it was not properly indexed
when bored and even the barrel was not properly indexed from the bore when cut and threaded. Black hole weaponry did
that to me once. They look good outside but when measured with gauges they showed the type of hack job they did.
This means the bore would be a tad off center not by much but the bullet would slightly touch the side
of the brake or hider making all sort of accuracy problems, keyholeing and so forth.

Also how come they can have 1/2" threads with a 35 bore or even a standard flash hider?
are they 1/2" threads? ... I guess it can be done but I would be very concerned about accuracy and crown swelling over time.

I don't mean this is the reason but it also doesn't seem like the way a 9mm should be done.

you get to the bottom of a problem by elimination. Go to to the range during the day with good day light.

 

[JackNeat]

Back to the range again today and better results. Still had an occasional random flyer which went 8” or so off aim point at around 15yds but seeing how I had noticeable improvement in general I will go to one more range that has a shooting vise available so I can eliminate myself from the equation.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Same ammo?

 

[JackNeat]

Yes... plus I shot some Remington 9mm by BIL brought along. Pretty much same results with my WOLF ammo and his Remington ammo.

 

[JackNeat]

My woes continue. I tried a different Ammo today - ZQi 9mm 124gr FMJ
Every bullet split / fragmented after leaving the barrel. Here is one target - this was 3 bullets with 6 holes. I shot more than this and each shot was the exact same result.
I switched back over to the Wolf Ammo and overall results have gotten much better than the first day at the range ( barrel break-in achieved?? If that is such a thing ) With the Wolf Ammo though I still noted at least 3 bullets that fragmented and two holes in the paper from a single bullet.

I sent DJS a message and asked if they want to inspect the rifle or if I need to keep trying different Ammo.

This is bizarre if you ask me

 

[holdover]

Seems like something may be loose, Are your scope rings tight? Is your sight made in China?

 

[JackNeat]

??? The bullets are fragmenting. That is not 6 shots on that paper. It is 3 shots and 6 holes

I was at Master Class Range and I even had Jim come over and he watched me shoot those 3 rounds and the resulting 6 holes.

 

[Vapor]

Something isn't right. That looks like a buckshot pattern...and your bullets should not be fragging.

That looks like groups my pc carbine would have at 100 yards.


Ar pistol experts, I had it over to you all...I just know that ain't right.

 

[JackNeat]

It ain’t right .. lol. I get better grouping with my 12g and buckshot.

 

[technicalgadget]

Occasional flyers can sometimes mean something is amiss with the bullet weight and the rifling of the barrel / twist rate. I noticed you tried Wolf at 115 grain and ZQI at 124 grain. Both brands are pretty low end. You should try either lighter or heavier. 9mm has weights ranging from 90, 100, 115, 120, 124, 135, 147 and 160 grains. Try finding the lightest and the heaviest, try using hollow points or wadcutters, try polymer jackets, or different brands, but finding ammo your firearm likes could be difficult during these times.

If all else fails, check the equipment. Check the bullet path and feed ramps. Inspect the feed ramps on where it’s touching. Look for lead or brass shavings in or near the chamber. Chamber a round and eject it to inspect the bullet heads carefully, make sure there’s no deformation of the heads. Look at the ejected brass for clues. Don’t give up and good luck.

 

[JackNeat]

Finding Ammo is going to be an issue. But I will keep looking and asking around. I’ll try to look for those things you mentioned.

Hoping DJS contacts me back with some thoughts.

 

[MillidotShooter]

What type of threads and flash hider do you have?
Are you positive barrel is firm into the upper as well as the sights and optics?

I was going to ask the same thing... Depending on the type of barrel nut, without spacers, the Gas tube won't align properly. A loose barrel will DEFINITELY throw round all over hells creation. Also... I would NEVER sight in with Wolf ammo... It's absolute crap and inconsistent as hell. I only use Wolf to break a barrel in when I don't really care about accuracy, or just for blasting off for shits and giggles. I never use it for accuracy... Definitely don't want to skimp on ammo for sighting... Or at least not after you are actually ON PAPER. Also try different ammo weights... Some barrels are finicky... Make sure the optics are torqued down properly and pushed forward in the rails before tightening. Not doing so can cause some slop in the optic. As to the Muzzle device, also make sure it is good and torqued. If it is loose, it can cause some weird barrel harmonics and throw shots as well...

 

[Robin]

One bullet, two holes!?!?!?!?!?!?! Wtf! I would disassemble a round or two and see what the heck is in there. Maybe they are using gas checks or a wad of some sort.
Robin

 

[BDinPutnam]

I was going to ask the same thing... Depending on the type of barrel nut, without spacers, the Gas tube won't align properly. A loose barrel will DEFINITELY throw round all over hells creation. Also... I would NEVER sight in with Wolf ammo... It's absolute crap and inconsistent as hell. I only use Wolf to break a barrel in when I don't really care about accuracy, or just for blasting off for shits and giggles. I never use it for accuracy... Definitely don't want to skimp on ammo for sighting... Or at least not after you are actually ON PAPER. Also try different ammo weights... Some barrels are finicky... Make sure the optics are torqued down properly and pushed forward in the rails before tightening. Not doing so can cause some slop in the optic. As to the Muzzle device, also make sure it is good and torqued. If it is loose, it can cause some weird barrel harmonics and throw shots as well...

All good points but one correction- 9mm does not require a gas tube.

 

[meketrefe]

I was going to ask the same thing... Depending on the type of barrel nut, without spacers, the Gas tube won't align properly. A loose barrel will DEFINITELY throw round all over hells creation. Also... I would NEVER sight in with Wolf ammo... It's absolute crap and inconsistent as hell. I only use Wolf to break a barrel in when I don't really care about accuracy, or just for blasting off for shits and giggles. I never use it for accuracy... Definitely don't want to skimp on ammo for sighting... Or at least not after you are actually ON PAPER. Also try different ammo weights... Some barrels are finicky... Make sure the optics are torqued down properly and pushed forward in the rails before tightening. Not doing so can cause some slop in the optic. As to the Muzzle device, also make sure it is good and torqued. If it is loose, it can cause some weird barrel harmonics and throw shots as well...

Like others said there should not be a gas tube and also harmonics in a pistol caliber would be negligible so there is something else going on
so after inspecting the gun from head to toe.

 

[JackNeat]

I haven't gotten down to clean and look at the rifle yet but... I just called RISE where I purchased the ZQi ammo which was fragmenting and he asked about the muzzle device and said that some 9MM ammo can fragment when fired through a 9mm carbine with a muzzle break/flash hider. Mentioned looking around for 9mm of higher grade and a 9mm round that is fully coated . Good luck with this at the moment is all that comes to mind.

 

[meketrefe]

My woes continue. I tried a different Ammo today - ZQi 9mm 124gr FMJ View attachment 84702
Every bullet split / fragmented after leaving the barrel. Here is one target - this was 3 bullets with 6 holes. I shot more than this and each shot was the exact same result. View attachment 84703
I switched back over to the Wolf Ammo and overall results have gotten much better than the first day at the range ( barrel break-in achieved?? If that is such a thing ) With the Wolf Ammo though I still noted at least 3 bullets that fragmented and two holes in the paper from a single bullet.

I sent DJS a message and asked if they want to inspect the rifle or if I need to keep trying different Ammo.

This is bizarre if you ask me

From here it looks that one of the impacts seem to be keyholeing.
If that is the case this can only be due to these factors:
- slow rate of twist (I doubt this is the issue for 9mm projectiles)
- A defect on the rifling or the bore.
- A defect at the muzzle , including a crowing issue or an interference.
Did you take the flash hider off and try?

Break in, harmonics and other factors like that are negligible for a pistol caliber so forget about those.

We alre also asuming your sights / optics are not loose and you are using a steady rest dead on.

 

[Vapor]

From here it looks that one of the impacts seem to be keyholeing.
If that is the case this can only be due to these factors:
- slow rate of twist (I doubt this is the issue for 9mm projectiles)
- A defect on the rifling or the bore.
- A defect at the muzzle , including a crowing issue or an interference.
Did you take the flash hider off and try?

I wondered if the flash hider wasn't on properly, olthe wrong diameter, or the barrel threads aren't concentric.