New Jersey to ban gas-powered cars by 2035, claims move will ‘preserve consumer choice’

Far king · Nov 23, 2023

livingston said:
New Jersey to ban gas-powered cars by 2035, claims move will ‘preserve consumer choice’

New Jersey will outlaw the sales of new gas-powered cars to combat climate change after the state Department of Environmental Protection officially adopted a rule forcing automakers to transition to zero-emission fleets by 2035.

Gov. Phil Murphy, a Democrat, insisted the directive will “preserve consumer choice and promote affordability” by making more types of electric vehicles available when taken into account with the Biden administration’s incentives. New Jersey joins at least 10 other states in enacting a rule banning gas-powered car sales by 2035 including: California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Maryland, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia and Washington.

New Jersey to ban gas-powered cars by 2035, claims move will ‘preserve consumer choice’

New Jersey will outlaw the sales of new gas-powered cars to combat climate change after the state Department of Environmental Protection officially adopted a rule forcing automakers to transition to zero-emission fleets by 2035.

www.washingtontimes.com

Those 11 states that plan to screw us by 2035 better come up with a new fuel source because electricity is out of the question. Ain’t no way they can meet the explosive demand placed on the grid without the fossil fuels to generate it.

Saltwater60 · Nov 23, 2023

I will not comply. This might be what forces me out of NYS unless something changes drastically.

ManualF150 · Nov 23, 2023

I keep hearing EPA 2027 Emissions will require gas engines to have a GPF (Gasoline Particulate Filter) like diesel vehicles do. Diesel uses a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).

It will have it in conjunction with the catalytic converters.

I'm waiting for gas engines to require SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) units. Which I did read could happen. It would operate the same as a diesel unit would.

Saltwater60 · Nov 23, 2023

ManualF150 said:
I keep hearing EPA 2027 Emissions will require gas engines to have a GPF (Gasoline Particulate Filter) like diesel vehicles do. Diesel uses a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).

It will have it in conjunction with the catalytic converters.

I'm waiting for gas engines to require SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) units. Which I did read could happen. It would operate the same as a diesel unit would.

Speak English man. I’ll have to look these up. I have no clue what these machines are. Are they good or bad? Should I buy a new car before this crap happens. I was hoping to wait a few years beyond that but I can adjust.

TEOTWAWKI inc. · Nov 23, 2023

Isn't Toyota working on some fancy new hydrogen engine? Whats everybody going to cry about then?

the roads have been moistened with fresh clean water

ManualF150 · Nov 23, 2023

Saltwater60 said:
Speak English man. I’ll have to look these up. I have no clue what these machines are. Are they good or bad? Should I buy a new car before this crap happens. I was hoping to wait a few years beyond that but I can adjust.

In laymen terms gas engines produce soot, and is finer soot than diesel engines. Look at the chrome tail pipes of cars, they are black inside because of the soot. It happens more on turbocharged engines due to the burn conditions. So what a GPF does is it simply captures the soot and then using a very lean burn strategy or another injector adding gasoline right before the GPF to get it hot enough to burn off the soot inside the GPF.

Then all the terminology such as passive versus active regeneration can happen. Passive is when you are driving the vehicle the engine keeps the GPF hot enough to maintain a full soot burn, and active regeneration is when the computer detects the soot levels in the GPF to be at a certain parameter to start an active regeneration to get that GPF hot enough to burn off the soot.

Look at a newer diesel trucks exhaust. You can eat dinner out of it. It's that clean. No soot.

To be honest, it's simply amazing the technology that we've created to clean up a once dirty fuel like diesel to burn cleaner than a more refined fuel like gasoline and gain more power.

TEOTWAWKI inc. said:
Isn't Toyota working on some fancy new hydrogen engine? Whats everybody going to cry about then?

the roads have been moistened with fresh clean water

Doing hydrogen will need to have an SCR to control NOx. Can still use urea/DEF/AdBlue (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) to achieve this without needing to create a new substance.

If the engine will only burn hydrogen, then it won't need a catalytic converter nor a GPF. Unless it will be a dual fuel engine that will burn a carbonaceous fuel like standard gasoline, propane, or natural gas.

Cummins is trying to master it in the Cummins B6.7.

Huge problem right now with H2 technology is the GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent). H2 and even electricity doesn't produce the same amount of energy as a gallon of gas and especially diesel. There is a ton more losses, not just in the batteries and drive train, but getting the juice into the batteries. A lot of which we already discussed in laymen terms on this board already in other threads....

Here's some reading of EPA 2027:

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P1017626.pdf

Here's this year's Energy.gov's Hydrogen portfolio:

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2023-03/h2iqhour-02222023.pdf

Defilade · Nov 23, 2023

And the agenda continues on.

Far king · Nov 23, 2023

ManualF150 said:
I keep hearing EPA 2027 Emissions will require gas engines to have a GPF (Gasoline Particulate Filter) like diesel vehicles do. Diesel uses a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter).

It will have it in conjunction with the catalytic converters.

I'm waiting for gas engines to require SCR (Selective Catalyst Reduction) units. Which I did read could happen. It would operate the same as a diesel unit would.

ManualF150 said:
In laymen terms gas engines produce soot, and is finer soot than diesel engines. Look at the chrome tail pipes of cars, they are black inside because of the soot. It happens more on turbocharged engines due to the burn conditions. So what a GPF does is it simply captures the soot and then using a very lean burn strategy or another injector adding gasoline right before the GPF to get it hot enough to burn off the soot inside the GPF.

Then all the terminology such as passive versus active regeneration can happen. Passive is when you are driving the vehicle the engine keeps the GPF hot enough to maintain a full soot burn, and active regeneration is when the computer detects the soot levels in the GPF to be at a certain parameter to start an active regeneration to get that GPF hot enough to burn off the soot.

Look at a newer diesel trucks exhaust. You can eat dinner out of it. It's that clean. No soot.

To be honest, it's simply amazing the technology that we've created to clean up a once dirty fuel like diesel to burn cleaner than a more refined fuel like gasoline and gain more power.

Doing hydrogen will need to have an SCR to control NOx. Can still use urea/DEF/AdBlue (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) to achieve this without needing to create a new substance.

If the engine will only burn hydrogen, then it won't need a catalytic converter nor a GPF. Unless it will be a dual fuel engine that will burn a carbonaceous fuel like standard gasoline, propane, or natural gas.

Cummins is trying to master it in the Cummins B6.7.

Huge problem right now with H2 technology is the GGE (Gasoline Gallon Equivalent). H2 and even electricity doesn't produce the same amount of energy as a gallon of gas and especially diesel. There is a ton more losses, not just in the batteries and drive train, but getting the juice into the batteries. A lot of which we already discussed in laymen terms on this board already in other threads....

Here's some reading of EPA 2027:

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P1017626.pdf

Here's this year's Energy.gov's Hydrogen portfolio:

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2023-03/h2iqhour-02222023.pdf

Thanks for the detailed explanation on the matter. You know what you’re talking about.

Cavalry · Nov 23, 2023

These states need to stop being pussies and outright ban anything and everything they do not like, effective immediately, with no grandfathering. Roll the entire northeast back to pre-industrial times, it will be fabulous.

Jmac00 · Nov 23, 2023

the price of a used car/truck will just keep climbing. People keep their cars for 7 years now. By 2035, most people will be keeping their cars for 15 years. I should have invested in AutoZone years ago.
20 years ago, Autozone was trading at $84/share. today, its trading at a whooping $2677.77. So, had you bought $10K worth 20 yrs ago. Today it would be worth $320K+ or thereabouts

Anyway, when people won't buy an electric vehicle, and auto-makers can't sell them. THATS when something has to give.

ManualF150 · Nov 23, 2023

Jmac00 said:
the price of a used car/truck will just keep climbing. People keep their cars for 7 years now. By 2035, most people will be keeping their cars for 15 years. I should have invested in AutoZone years ago.
20 years ago, Autozone was trading at $84/share. today, its trading at a whooping $2677.77. So, had you bought $10K worth 20 yrs ago. Today it would be worth $320K+ or thereabouts

Anyway, when people won't buy an electric vehicle, and auto-makers can't sell them. THATS when something has to give.

At the rate we are going, I believe they are trying to make ICE vehicles extremely complicated, which results in very expensive repairs so people will give up and go electric. That is their hopes at least...

If anyone owns a modern diesel truck and has kept it stock with no deletes/mods, and something goes on it, you already know are in for a sticker shock repair bill that day comes.

Right now, most gas vehicles are still within reach of most people to repair. I'm not talking BMW/Mercedes Benz, etc

Start adding more emissions components that cost a lot, the cost of adding DEF, along with likely high priced gasoline fuel, and then worrying about a GPF getting full from idling too much. I foresee the masses do what they are doing to diesel currently... a lot of folks abandoned diesels and going to gasoline engines right now. No DEF, no super complicated emissions like a DPF/SCR, etc. To further advance, gasoline engines will be the new diesel engine -- too complicated/expensive to repair and folks will be forced to go all electric.

In other words, bring on what has been done to modern diesel engines to gasoline engines, and I foresee the same complaints that folks are mentioning about diesel engines being too expensive to operate. Or not fiscally viable to even own.

I was just talking to a guy a few weeks ago about this. Traded his Duramax 3500 for a gas 3500. Between the price of diesel fuel, worrying about DEF quality, idling too long for the DPF to stay healthy, and potentially expensive repairs. It took that relief off him, even though he really misses the power of diesel for towing.

Only people that will be running diesel and gas in say 2050 will be the government, rich people, long haul truck drivers, mining equipment (conveniently deregulated), and last of the farmers that have old school tractors. Probably ban people from running their classic cars too, unless they want to pay some crazy registration tax. I could see them doing that... especially in NYS.

Defilade · Nov 24, 2023

Jmac00 said:
the price of a used car/truck will just keep climbing. People keep their cars for 7 years now. By 2035, most people will be keeping their cars for 15 years. I should have invested in AutoZone years ago.
20 years ago, Autozone was trading at $84/share. today, its trading at a whooping $2677.77. So, had you bought $10K worth 20 yrs ago. Today it would be worth $320K+ or thereabouts

Anyway, when people won't buy an electric vehicle, and auto-makers can't sell them. THATS when something has to give.

People will buy if gas shoots up over $10.

Defilade · Nov 24, 2023

We shall regress to the dark ages. Horseback will be the option.

Saltwater60 · Nov 24, 2023

ManualF150 said:
At the rate we are going, I believe they are trying to make ICE vehicles extremely complicated, which results in very expensive repairs so people will give up and go electric. That is their hopes at least...

If anyone owns a modern diesel truck and has kept it stock with no deletes/mods, and something goes on it, you already know are in for a sticker shock repair bill that day comes.

Right now, most gas vehicles are still within reach of most people to repair. I'm not talking BMW/Mercedes Benz, etc

Start adding more emissions components that cost a lot, the cost of adding DEF, along with likely high priced gasoline fuel, and then worrying about a GPF getting full from idling too much. I foresee the masses do what they are doing to diesel currently... a lot of folks abandoned diesels and going to gasoline engines right now. No DEF, no super complicated emissions like a DPF/SCR, etc. To further advance, gasoline engines will be the new diesel engine -- too complicated/expensive to repair and folks will be forced to go all electric.

In other words, bring on what has been done to modern diesel engines to gasoline engines, and I foresee the same complaints that folks are mentioning about diesel engines being too expensive to operate. Or not fiscally viable to even own.

I was just talking to a guy a few weeks ago about this. Traded his Duramax 3500 for a gas 3500. Between the price of diesel fuel, worrying about DEF quality, idling too long for the DPF to stay healthy, and potentially expensive repairs. It took that relief off him, even though he really misses the power of diesel for towing.

Only people that will be running diesel and gas in say 2050 will be the government, rich people, long haul truck drivers, mining equipment (conveniently deregulated), and last of the farmers that have old school tractors. Probably ban people from running their classic cars too, unless they want to pay some crazy registration tax. I could see them doing that... especially in NYS.

NYS is doing its best to do this right now with the carbon taxes they will be implementing soon. They say gasoline and natural gas will be the hardest hit with the biggest price increases. Steel making is exempt because they couldn’t afford it. How is this equal protection under the law. National fuel should sue over it. The leader of the DEC in nys said natural gas bills could jump 80% over this. Yikes.

Acer-m14 · Nov 24, 2023

while China is spewing black smoke ..

NJ and China .. Phil is getting laid and some sushi ..

Jmac00 · Nov 26, 2023

why is no one talking about the cost to recharge at home? Most people are going to have to improve there electric service, even from 150A service. If they want a decent fast charger, they will need a 200/250A service.

and what about insurance. Most EV's that get a pretty good 'ding' and their $40K+ vehicle is totaled, where the same ding on a ICE car can be repaired.

What about resale value. I have seen stories where people buy a used EV and within 6 months they need a new battery. That $14K used EV just cost them $23K for a new battery??

Saltwater60 · Nov 26, 2023

Jmac00 said:
why is no one talking about the cost to recharge at home? Most people are going to have to improve there electric service, even from 150A service. If they want a decent fast charger, they will need a 200/250A service.

and what about insurance. Most EV's that get a pretty good 'ding' and their $40K+ vehicle is totaled, where the same ding on a ICE car can be repaired.

What about resale value. I have seen stories where people buy a used EV and within 6 months they need a new battery. That $14K used EV just cost them $23K for a new battery??

I talk about all this and more with anyone that will listen. I’ve spoken about it on here and in-person many times. There more as well.
In cold weather batteries don’t last long, DC fast chargers damage batteries as well. Many chargers are broken regularly. The tires, brakes, and rotors are all more costly due to the weight of EVs, these also wear faster creating more particulate matter that causes cancer. Americans crave suv and trucks but there aren’t many EVs that fit this because the range is terrible. Every test I’ve seen gets worse reported range than the manufactures claim. The F150 lightening in the cold and towing is so terrible it’s almost comical.

ManualF150 · Nov 26, 2023

Saltwater60 said:
I talk about all this and more with anyone that will listen. I’ve spoken about it on here and in-person many times. There more as well.
In cold weather batteries don’t last long, DC fast chargers damage batteries as well. Many chargers are broken regularly. The tires, brakes, and rotors are all more costly due to the weight of EVs, these also wear faster creating more particulate matter that causes cancer. Americans crave suv and trucks but there aren’t many EVs that fit this because the range is terrible. Every test I’ve seen gets worse reported range than the manufactures claim. The F150 lightening in the cold and towing is so terrible it’s almost comical.

I was enlightened by a high school gear head over a cup of coffee this morning... remember back in the early 2000's all the HHO hype? How hydrogen and compressed natural gas, and propane were supposed to be the "future"?

Back then it was also the Wankel engine (rotary engine) was supposed to replace everything too...

Now we are on this "fad" of destroying the environment by digging up minerals that are not only terrible for the environment, but have no clear way of disposing of such minerals/chemicals after use. Making solid state batteries which will require PCBs which is also terrible for the environment.

Well, here we are in 2023 going on 2024... how did that all work out for us?

RooftopKorean · Nov 26, 2023

ManualF150 said:
Look at a newer diesel trucks exhaust. You can eat dinner out of it. It's that clean. No soot.

I really hope you're joking with this comment.

The DPF/SCR systems in modern diesels are a bane. They actually cause more issues than they do "helping the environment".

In order for the exhaust to be cleaned when using DEF fluid the exhaust needs to come up to proper temperature by going into Regen mode. Passive while driving at sustained speed of 60mph or above or active by the truck increasing it's RPM while idling burning additional diesel fuel.

The biproduct of the DPF being broke down by the SCR is ammonia.

Not to mention the thousands of problems that arise due to the EGR, DPF/SCR systems cause. What about all the chemicals used to clean up the clogged EGRs and DPF/SCRs?? The materials required to manufacturer new ones to replace the bad ones?

I own a diesel Pickup and the EGR, DPF/SCR are a complete disaster. Not to mention every single ambulance in hospitals fleet has that same garbage. They constantly go to the mechanic or dealerships to have EGR units replaced because they are clogged, or the intake manifolds need to be cleaned out because of the amount of carbon build up due to the engine gases being recycled back into the system. This isn't even counting the amounts of DPF/SCRs that were replaced due to the fuckery that is that bullshit emissions system.

It is hands down the worst thing to ever happen to the automotive industry and causes nothing but problems. It contributed to numerous failures in modern diesels compared to older diesels. I'm sure that some corrupt retard in the EPA got a sweet pay off to push the EGR, DPF/SCR bullshit.

The EPA can get fucked.

And as for your exhaust being that clean, likely story. I can take pictures of all of the ambulances in my fleets tailpipes and they tell another story. As for my personal truck, I'll plead the fifth but I don't need to worry about that horse shit plaguing my rig.

I'd also love to see a picture of the inside of your SCR exhaust system. No doubt it's probably caked up from the DEF crystalizing because it doesn't burn off properly.

No diesel mechanic I have ever talked to has said anything positive about the EGR, DPF/SCR systems.

The only things I hate more than this bullshit are liberals and the anti 2A establishment.

ManualF150 · Nov 26, 2023

RooftopKorean said:
I really hope you're joking with this comment.

I was joking... don't eat dinner out of a diesel exhaust... LOL

Though a properly working DPF will not allow soot to make it past it.

Both my personal diesel truck and my work diesel truck, the inside of the exhaust is nice and shiny like brand new.

RooftopKorean · Nov 26, 2023

And before you ask, I do all the maintenance on my pickup and it's a Cummins.

ManualF150 · Nov 26, 2023

RooftopKorean said:
I really hope you're joking with this comment.

The DPF/SCR systems in modern diesels are a bane. They actually cause more issues than they do "helping the environment".

In order for the exhaust to be cleaned when using DEF fluid the exhaust needs to come up to proper temperature by going into Regen mode. Passive while driving at sustained speed of 60mph or above or active by the truck increasing it's RPM while idling burning additional diesel fuel.

The biproduct of the DPF being broke down by the SCR is ammonia.

Not to mention the thousands of problems that arise due to the EGR, DPF/SCR systems cause. What about all the chemicals used to clean up the clogged EGRs and DPF/SCRs?? The materials required to manufacturer new ones to replace the bad ones?

I own a diesel Pickup and the EGR, DPF/SCR are a complete disaster. Not to mention every single ambulance in hospitals fleet has that same garbage. They constantly go to the mechanic or dealerships to have EGR units replaced because they are clogged, or the intake manifolds need to be cleaned out because of the amount of carbon build up due to the engine gases being recycled back into the system. This isn't even counting the amounts of DPF/SCRs that were replaced due to the fuckery that is that bullshit emissions system.

It is hands down the worst thing to ever happen to the automotive industry and causes nothing but problems. It contributed to numerous failures in modern diesels compared to older diesels. I'm sure that some corrupt retard in the EPA got a sweet pay off to push the EGR, DPF/SCR bullshit.

The EPA can get fucked.

And as for your exhaust being that clean, likely story. I can take pictures of all of the ambulances in my fleets tailpipes and they tell another story. As for my personal truck, I'll plead the fifth but I don't need to worry about that horse shit plaguing my rig.

I'd also love to see a picture of the inside of your SCR exhaust system. No doubt it's probably caked up from the DEF crystalizing because it doesn't burn off properly.

No diesel mechanic I have ever talked to has said anything positive about the EGR, DPF/SCR systems.

The only things I hate more than this bullshit are liberals and the anti 2A establishment.

Do I like EGR/DPF/SCR systems? Yes and no.

My truck is new, but I bought a Bissel Steamer to clean the SCR injector for PM next year. I'm very well aware of SCR/DPF/EGR problems.

I still be kicking myself for getting rid of my 2002 RAM 2500 CTD...

My work truck has 118k on it, a 2020 RAM 3500 SRW with the standard output Cummins. Been driving that one since 2021 and it's been a great truck to the company. No oil dilution or typewriter ticks either. DPF % is around 15-25% not towing. Towing it will usually head back down to 0%.

Been a member of Turbo Diesel Register for a long time... great resource, and love their magazines.

Cavalry · Nov 26, 2023

RooftopKorean said:
No diesel mechanic I have ever talked to has said anything positive about the EGR, DPF/SCR systems.

Nothing should eat its own shit.

Cleaning this as a scheduled maintenance is insane

ManualF150 · Nov 26, 2023

Cavalry said:
Nothing should eat its own shit.

Cleaning this as a scheduled maintenance is insane

Looks like it needs a chimney sweep and not a mechanic. :ROFL:

Cavalry · Nov 26, 2023

ManualF150 said:
Looks like it needs a chimney sweep and not a mechanic.

"Dealer serviced since new, all records included"

It will never need that particular service again. Ever. Oh, and its about 150HP more than factory and gets better MPG.

Saltwater60 · Nov 27, 2023

ManualF150 said:
I was enlightened by a high school gear head over a cup of coffee this morning... remember back in the early 2000's all the HHO hype? How hydrogen and compressed natural gas, and propane were supposed to be the "future"?

Back then it was also the Wankel engine (rotary engine) was supposed to replace everything too...

Now we are on this "fad" of destroying the environment by digging up minerals that are not only terrible for the environment, but have no clear way of disposing of such minerals/chemicals after use. Making solid state batteries which will require PCBs which is also terrible for the environment.

Well, here we are in 2023 going on 2024... how did that all work out for us?

I’m back in college for my masters degree and I have a project do and I’m going to choose hydrogen fuel as my topic. With the discovery of hydrogen originating from the earth and the bottle technology it’s perfectly doable at this point and we do t need the infrastructure as they claim now. We also don’t have to put tons of energy into making hydrogen anymore if it’s extracted from the earth. It’s also not tied to other pollutive practices anymore. What will their reason be for denying it this time? Much cleaner than strip mining the earth for metals that will run out before oil will.

New Jersey to ban gas-powered cars by 2035, claims move will ‘preserve consumer choice’

20×102mm Vulcan