New York concealed carry laws challenged in court

[ArmedCorgi]

Ok, let's see the case where a permit was pulled for restrictions. Been waiting nearly 10 years for this.

And you will most likely continue waiting if you are expecting this sort of occurrence to be national or even local news. Just like you will be waiting forever to hear about people losing their kids in divorce court or what people get back in their individual tax returns. Just because you aren't hearing about it, doesn't mean it's not happening to people. In any case, real quick, some are cited in this thread which you posted in from the old Site: http://nyfirearms.com/forums/pistol...uspend-permits-due-carry-out-restriction.html
I also seem to recall a case where a guy carried on a hike and accidentally placed the bag the gun was in on the roof of his car and drove off. His permit was revoked when he reported the missing handgun and his judge determined he was violating his restrictions because he was hiking and not "target shooting or hunting".

 

[Darth]

And you will most likely continue waiting if you are expecting this sort of occurrence to be national or even local news. Just like you will be waiting forever to hear about people losing their kids in divorce court or what people get back in their individual tax returns. Just because you aren't hearing about it, doesn't mean it's not happening to people. In any case, real quick, some are cited in this thread which you posted in from the old Site: http://nyfirearms.com/forums/pistol...uspend-permits-due-carry-out-restriction.html
I also seem to recall a case where a guy carried on a hike and accidentally placed the bag the gun was in on the roof of his car and drove off. His permit was revoked when he reported the missing handgun and his judge determined he was violating his restrictions because he was hiking and not "target shooting or hunting".

So no, you don't have any cases. Great. What I said in that thread still stands. Why post one I already posted in?

Also, as to your second point on the hiker, if you lose you handgun because you put it on top of your car and drive off with it, your problem is not carrying outside of restrictions. That's ridiculous.

I don't buy it. I don't buy that in 10+ years not one study has hit any news site. Especially with all the fear mongering.

It's just not happening. Why? Because that would be an actual case to be challenged. They aren't gong there.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

So no, you don't have any cases. Great. What I said in that thread still stands. Why post one I already posted in?

Also, as to your second point on the hiker, if you lose you handgun because you put it on top of your car and drive off with it, your problem is not carrying outside of restrictions. That's ridiculous.

I don't buy it. I don't buy that in 10+ years not one study has hit any news site. Especially with all the fear mongering.

It's just not happening. Why? Because that would be an actual case to be challenged. They aren't gong there.

So you are saying the people in that thread were lying? Also as to my second point, that person had their permit pulled because of their restrictions. The way it came to light wasn't why they had their permit pulled.

BTW, where is your proof that it hasn't happened? I mean, other than the ten years you've been waiting for the news of a case to be hand delivered to you.
Buy it or don't buy it, but saying that because the restrictions are not actually in the law, you won't have to worry about or deal with a suspension or revocation if you are caught carrying outside of your restrictions is just as reckless as you claim my fear mongering to be. I stand by my statement that just because you don't know of anyone who has had their permit revoked doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
If you feel confident to carry outside your restrictions (if you have any) good for you. I support you in that. Don't forget that I share in your sentiment, but at the same time, I don't have the means to sue or go through all the bs it would take to defend against a suspension/revocation. So at this point, I'm not willing to get into that sort of situation.

 

[Darth]

So you are saying the people in that thread were lying? Also as to my second point, that person had their permit pulled because of their restrictions. The way it came to light wasn't why they had their permit pulled.

I'm saying they've been misinformed in the same way tons other in the gun community have when any story starts "I know a guy/FFL/cop that told me one time..."

And in fact, if you check out some other threads on the other site about this issue, whenever we did get someone that tried to say they "know a guy" that this happened to, there was a bit more to the story. Like "I got my permit pulled for carrying outside of restrictions"..."well I pulled out my gun in the middle of a heated argument at the store and..." .

BTW, Where is your proof that it hasn't happened?

If the burden of proof were on me, and it would be if I were making the claim "If you carry outside of restrictions, your permit will get yanked", I'd provide some. As it isn't, there is no need to shift it.

I mean, other than the ten years you've been waiting for the news a case to be hand delivered to you.
Buy it or don't buy it, but saying that because the restrictions are not actually in the law, you won't have to worry about or deal with a suspension or revocation if you are caught carrying outside of your restrictions is just as reckless as you claim my fear mongering to be. I stand by my statement that just because you don't know of anyone who has had their permit revoked doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
If you feel confident to carry outside your restrictions (if you have any) good for you. I support you in that. Don't forget that I share in your sentiment, but at the same time, I don't have the means to sue or go through all the bs it would take to defend against a suspension/revocation. So at this point, I'm not willing to get into that sort of situation.

Hand delivered? Nah, literally any sort of evidence would be considered.

Ok, I'll keep my view that, with no evidence whatsoever, I won't accept the "they will pull your permit" fear mongering.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Ok, I'll keep my view that, with no evidence whatsoever, I won't accept the "they will pull your permit" fear mongering.

Fair enough. I'll keep my view that with no evidence at all to counter, they "can" pull your permit if you are caught outside your restrictions. That, while completely unconstitutional and soundly wrong, in NYS, it is at the discretion of your judge to do so and while you are not breaking the law by doing so, you are giving the person who decides whether or not you can have a handgun reason to think you shouldn't have one. I mean if they are putting these restrictions on your permit, they must not want you to violate them, but what the fuck do I know?
You are also making assertions so you need to back them up with something more than "I've been wait for ten years to hear of a case." or "I've never heard of a case of this happening." Considering that everyone has a different judge with different views...

 

[Darth]

Fair enough. I'll keep my view that with no evidence at all to counter, they "can" pull your permit if you are caught outside your restrictions. That, while completely unconstitutional and soundly wrong, in NYS, it is at the discretion of your judge to do so and while you are not breaking the law by doing so, you are giving the person who decides whether or not you can have a handgun reason to think you shouldn't have one. I mean if they are putting these restrictions on your permit, they must not want you to violate them, but what the fuck do I know?
You are also making assertions so you need to back them up with something more than "I've been wait for ten years to hear of a case." or "I've never heard of a case of this happening." Considering that everyone has a different judge with different views...

What assertion have I made?

 

[Shadow2]

It would appear the supreme court could care less about splits, but do agree its an avenue to try. The NRA should have a standard lawsuit on file for any member to fill out to get the process going. Have the courts get slammed by what would amount to tens of thousands of lawsuits. Each person entitled by law to file and have there grievances heard.

I thought this was challenging 'may issue' vs 'shall issue', which would take care of all the restrictions nonsense. A similar suit was just filed in New Jersey. If this makes it up to the circuit court and looses, it will conflict with the DC ruling - hopefully spurring the Supreme Court to take it up.

 

[Shadow2]

Having your pistol permit pulled for not doing anything illegal may actually be a great case to go all the way to SCOTUS. Your flat out being denied a right for doing nothing illegal. Name another right you loose for not doing something illegal.

Fair enough. I'll keep my view that with no evidence at all to counter, they "can" pull your permit if you are caught outside your restrictions. That, while completely unconstitutional and soundly wrong, in NYS, it is at the discretion of your judge to do so and while you are not breaking the law by doing so, you are giving the person who decides whether or not you can have a handgun reason to think you shouldn't have one. I mean if they are putting these restrictions on your permit, they must not want you to violate them, but what the fuck do I know?
You are also making assertions so you need to back them up with something more than "I've been wait for ten years to hear of a case." or "I've never heard of a case of this happening." Considering that everyone has a different judge with different views...

 

[Darth]

Having your pistol permit pulled for not doing anything illegal may actually be a great case to go all the way to SCOTUS. Your flat out being denied a right for doing nothing illegal. Name another right you loose for not doing something illegal.

!!!! DING DING DING DING DING !!!!!

 

[ArmedCorgi]

What assertion have I made?

That I wouldn't risk my permit being suspended or revoked if caught carrying outside of my restrictions. Did I misunderstand you? Also, I would add that I have good reason to believe my judge would suspend or revoke my permit in that instance. My judge happens to be McNally Jr., the one involved in the latest NYSRPA lawsuit regarding denial of unrestricted carry. He is one of those judges that requires "good cause" when you apply to have your restrictions removed. Considering that he requires good cause, why should I assume he wouldn't pull my permit?

 

[ArmedCorgi]

Having your pistol permit pulled for not doing anything illegal may actually be a great case to go all the way to SCOTUS. Your flat out being denied a right for doing nothing illegal. Name another right you loose for not doing something illegal.

Yeah, if you have the money to do it.

 

[Darth]

That I wouldn't risk my permit being suspended or revoked if caught carrying outside of my restrictions. Did I misunderstand you? Also, I would add that I have good reason to believe my judge would suspend or revoke my permit in that instance. My judge happens to be McNally Jr., the one involved in the latest NYSRPA lawsuit regarding denial of unrestricted carry. He is one of those judges that requires "good cause" when you apply to have your restrictions removed. Considering that he requires good cause, why should I assume he wouldn't pull my permit?

You must have misunderstood something.

I have no say on what you did/would do.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

You must have misunderstood something.

I have no say on what you did/would do.

The feeling is mutual.

 

[Shadow2]

They know that, and its why people with money get a full carry. Bullet point number 2 being what the masses are subjected too here in NY.

coerced; coercing
transitive verb
1: to compel to an act or choice

• was coerced into agreeing
• abusers who coerce their victims into silence

Yeah, if you have the money to do it.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

They know that, and its why people with money get a full carry. Bullet point number 2 being what the masses are subjected too here in NY.

coerced; coercing
transitive verb
1: to compel to an act or choice

• was coerced into agreeing
• abusers who coerce their victims into silence

Sadly yes. That is where I fall. I don't disagree with you or Darth, I'm just not in a position to risk it. Hate me if you want to.

 

[Shadow2]

The Crime of Coercion in New York

Coercion, or as a verb “to coerce,” is the act of creating “compulsion by physical force or threat of physical force.” Black’s Law Dictionary 106 (7th ed. 2001). Its harm has been characterized by the United States Supreme Court as the “interference” of civil liberties and rights of another that occur when they are forced – through the use of threats or intimidation – to commit an act or not commit an act which they have “a legal right to do or to abstain from doing.” Sekhar v. U.S., 133 S.Ct. 2720, 2725 (2013). Although this may have historically been the scope of the offense, in modern day New York the unlawful threatening of another to perform an otherwise lawful act is only one form of the crime of Coercion as defined by the New York Penal Law – the misdemeanor offense of Coercion in the Second Degree. The other is the use of threats to compel another to perform acts they have no legal right to do, such as a) commit or attempt to commit a felony; b) cause or attempt to cause harm to another’s person or property or c) violate his or her duty as a police officer or public servant. For this conduct, New York prosecutors may charge the D Felony crime of Coercion in the First Degree and seek substantially more severe penalties. New York Penal Law § 135.65 (2).

 

[Shadow2]

I'm just chiming in I'm not judging anyone here. If i had the money Id get busted on purpose and bring it ll the way. In the meantime I would buy a second house out of state where i could live free then die.

Sadly yes. That is where I fall. I don't disagree with you or Darth, I'm just not in a position to risk it. Hate me if you want to.

 

[M_F]

What needs to be challenged is the fact that a NY STATE carry license is invalid in NYC. There is case law that absent a real crime a pistol licensee cannot be charged with CPW. But if we drive through NYC with our legal handguns NOT locked up in the trunk we can be charged with a felony.

FUAC

 

[Marine Cpl]

That I wouldn't risk my permit being suspended or revoked if caught carrying outside of my restrictions. Did I misunderstand you? Also, I would add that I have good reason to believe my judge would suspend or revoke my permit in that instance. My judge happens to be McNally Jr., the one involved in the latest NYSRPA lawsuit regarding denial of unrestricted carry. He is one of those judges that requires "good cause" when you apply to have your restrictions removed. Considering that he requires good cause, why should I assume he wouldn't pull my permit?

What's more important? Your collection or your life or your family's life?

I never understood that way of thinking. People would rather go defenseless for an unfounded fear of losing their guns but if they are dead on the side of the road, their gun collection is intact.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

What's more important? Your collection or your life or your family's life?

I never understood that way of thinking. People would rather go defenseless for an unfounded fear of losing their guns but if they are dead on the side of the road, their gun collection is intact.

What good does it do your family to lose your ability to defend them by losing your guns because you want to flout your judge's restrictions? Outside the home in NY you have a duty to retreat anyway. You think you are doing you or your family any favors by going to jail? WTF? Seriously, you want to carry outside your restrictions do it. If you don't, don't. Just don't try to tell me there isn't a risk involved and that it's no big deal, you could sue. Unless you are going to personally fund my lawsuit fuck off.

 

[Marine Cpl]

What good does it do your family to lose your ability to defend them by losing your guns because you want to flout your judge's restrictions? Outside the home in NY you have a duty to retreat anyway. You think you are doing you or your family any favors by going to jail? WTF? Seriously, you want to carry outside your restrictions do it. If you don't, don't. Just don't try to tell me there isn't a risk involved and that it's no big deal, you could sue. Unless you are going to personally fund my lawsuit fuck off.

What's the greater risk? Losing your life or losing your collection? It's a simple answer.

And what does jail or lawsuits have anything to anything? Do you plan on committing crimes? Do you plan on flaunting that you are carrying? Brandishing even? Doing something illegal or negligent that'll get you sued? Because I don't know what you are talking about in regards to going to jail or lawsuits.

And why the fuck off hostility? Did I curse at you. Looks like a nerve was struck and it wasn't mine. I guess you aren't capable of having a conversation.

Have a good night.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

What's the greater risk? Losing your life or losing your collection? It's a simple answer.

And what does jail or lawsuits have anything to anything? Do you plan on committing crimes? Do you plan on flaunting that you are carrying? Brandishing even? Because I don't know what you are talking about in regards to going to jail.

And why the fuck off hostility? Did I curse at you. Looks like a nerve was struck and it wasn't mine. I guess you aren't capable of having a conversation.

Have a good night.

It's a good question @Willjr75 but considering the odds of actually being in a situation of having to use deadly force verses getting stopped and caught carrying outside your restrictions it isn't so simple. The chances for both are remote, yet equally impacting on ones life for various reasons.
The "fuck off" was not specifically meant for you. I'm sorry it came off that way. It's just frustrating because I feel like I'm catching shit for having a clue about what my judge would do.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It's a good question @Willjr75 but considering the odds of actually being in a situation of having to use deadly force verses getting stopped and caught carrying outside your restrictions it isn't so simple. The chances for both are remote, yet equally impacting on ones life for various reasons.
The "fuck off" was not specifically meant for you. I'm sorry it came off that way. It's just frustrating because I feel like I'm catching shit for having a clue about what my judge would do.

How would you get caught? Serious question.

 

[ArmedCorgi]

How would you get caught? Serious question.

With the same dumb luck you would be caught in a deadly force situation. Or, I am printing and a cop see's it and it happens to be the wrong kind of cop. That's the best I can offer. I guess it would ease my mind if I knew my judge wasn't the most 2A hostile in my county. That's just me and my situation. YMMV, you know?

 

[Mike1Juliet]

"The mini NRA wasting tax payer money"
What? jesus christ the irony is palpable

 

[Mike1Juliet]

This is just yet another area where NY and NYers drive me up the wall.

We (some of us...I sure as the dickens did not when I had restrictions) go out of our way to follow NON EXISTENT laws (Carry restrictions) out of PURE fear mongering (the judge might YANK IT), we spread that practice to others like it is gospel and then we file a lawsuit saying it's not OK.

!?

There is no such thing as a "full carry" pistol permit in NY. You either have a carry permit, or you don't. (Not counting things like premises, etc.)

You simply can't say "I know that it's not really the law, but I don't want to chance my permit" and then the next day challenge the "law."

I don't think its as simple as its made out. Sure there are no legal ramifications for not following the permit since there's no violation that can be, well, violated. However is there any legal precedent involving someone who violates the restrictions? Has anyone actually been arrested, prosecuted or lost their license by violating the restrictions? These would be the important questions to ask and if there is none or no one has been punished for it then surely there is no efficacy for the restrictions at all but I doubt that's the case since this has been around for over 100 years, surely something has come up.

 

[Darth]

I don't think its as simple as its made out. Sure there are no legal ramifications for not following the permit since there's no violation that can be, well, violated. However is there any legal precedent involving someone who violates the restrictions? Has anyone actually been arrested, prosecuted or lost their license by violating the restrictions? These would be the important questions to ask and if there is none or no one has been punished for it then surely there is no efficacy for the restrictions at all but I doubt that's the case since this has been around for over 100 years, surely something has come up.

...the very thing I've been doing since the beginning of this thread?

And it seems the answer is NO. Nobody has had their permit pulled for "carrying outside of restrictions" and can provide proof.

Anecdotes out the wazoo, but no proof.

 

[Mike1Juliet]

...the very thing I've been doing since the beginning of this thread?

And it seems the answer is NO. Nobody has had their permit pulled for "carrying outside of restrictions" and can provide proof.

Anecdotes out the wazoo, but no proof.

From the way one of the replies above reads, any issue with someone's license is a judge's call and after that it pretty much becomes an anecdote. I'll see if I can ask some police friends in town or maybe I'll call the county tomorrow and ask what becomes of it or is there a law they can cite (I know they can't) and see what their response is.

From what I understand the state gives the counties the power to regulate the permits. Could this just be an extension of those powers? Is the county allows to just make up restrictions and make them lawful? But what I don't understand is if the former is true then how can a county law be enforceable state wide? If I go to fulton county and not-hike with my permit that lets me hike, what happens?

Oh yea I found this little tidbit too, its a pretty simple summary http://nyfirearms.com/forums/laws-p...rtsmen-permit-actually-full-carry-permit.html

but TLDR, the judges can make up permits because they say they can but its not illegal to violate them and theres no case law that supports it so what ever I guess

 

[ArmedCorgi]

From the way one of the replies above reads, any issue with someone's license is a judge's call and after that it pretty much becomes an anecdote. I'll see if I can ask some police friends in town or maybe I'll call the county tomorrow and ask what becomes of it or is there a law they can cite (I know they can't) and see what their response is.

There is nothing in the law. You are not breaking the law by carrying outside your restrictions. You won't go to jail. You may however, lose your permit and guns. It just depends on your judge. Call your clerk and ask if your judge has ever revoked a permit because of carrying outside of restrictions. If not, great. I can almost guarantee my judge would. YMMV.

 

[Darth]

From the way one of the replies above reads, any issue with someone's license is a judge's call and after that it pretty much becomes an anecdote. I'll see if I can ask some police friends in town or maybe I'll call the county tomorrow and ask what becomes of it or is there a law they can cite (I know they can't) and see what their response is.

Meaningless is what it is. Because it was decided long ago, and even the NYSP put it on their site for all to see (but have since changed it because of the re-certification). Here is what it used to say under their FAQs:

The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer. Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license.

That second sentence is the bit the NYSP just invented themselves, and we have absolutely no backing for.

From what I understand the state gives the counties the power to regulate the permits. Could this just be an extension of those powers? Is the county allows to just make up restrictions and make them lawful? But what I don't understand is if the former is true then how can a county law be enforceable state wide? If I go to fulton county and not-hike with my permit that lets me hike, what happens?

I'm sure they could have been given power to place legal restrictions on your permit. But they were not.

Oh yea I found this little tidbit too, its a pretty simple summary http://nyfirearms.com/forums/laws-p...rtsmen-permit-actually-full-carry-permit.html

but TLDR, the judges can make up permits because they say they can but its not illegal to violate them and theres no case law that supports it so what ever I guess

Yeah, that Darthgamer138 fellow has it down right it seems. He's a sharp cookie.