NFA fingerprints

[subsonic]

Anyone have a good source on what the fingerprints are actually used for submitted with NFA applications to buy or build NFA items/AOWs?

Are they just used for background checks and/or held in your file? I expect they are actually permanently entered into IAFIS and searched any time law enforcement does a fingerprint search, but I can't find any actual information on this.

Wondering because a lot of folks act like it's no big deal, just some paperwork, $200 (or $5) and wait a bit and you can have your suppressor or SBS (in free states that is) etc. But my regular gun purchase info isn't kept in an electronic database and no biometrics are involved. I've managed to get through life as a professional law abiding citizen up to now without ever being fingerprinted so I see this as rather intrusive.

 

[GOYABEAN]

Anyone have a good source on what the fingerprints are actually used for submitted with NFA applications to buy or build NFA items/AOWs?

Are they just used for background checks and/or held in your file? I expect they are actually permanently entered into IAFIS and searched any time law enforcement does a fingerprint search, but I can't find any actual information on this.

Wondering because a lot of folks act like it's no big deal, just some paperwork, $200 (or $5) and wait a bit and you can have your suppressor or SBS (in free states that is) etc. But my regular gun purchase info isn't kept in an electronic database and no biometrics are involved. I've managed to get through life as a professional law abiding citizen up to now without ever being fingerprinted so I see this as rather intrusive.

Just wait until they start asking for a DNA sample it wouldn't surprise me

 

[Marine Cpl]

Anyone have a good source on what the fingerprints are actually used for submitted with NFA applications to buy or build NFA items/AOWs?

Are they just used for background checks and/or held in your file? I expect they are actually permanently entered into IAFIS and searched any time law enforcement does a fingerprint search, but I can't find any actual information on this.

Wondering because a lot of folks act like it's no big deal, just some paperwork, $200 (or $5) and wait a bit and you can have your suppressor or SBS (in free states that is) etc. But my regular gun purchase info isn't kept in an electronic database and no biometrics are involved. I've managed to get through life as a professional law abiding citizen up to now without ever being fingerprinted so I see this as rather intrusive.

If any of those gunshops that you bought your long guns at went out of business or changed ownership to a different company, the FBI has your info.

 

[Edwardteach72]

If any of those gunshops that you bought your long guns at went out of business or changed ownership to a different company, the FBI has your info.

Only for up to 5 years back isnt it?

 

[subsonic]

If any of those gunshops that you bought your long guns at went out of business or changed ownership to a different company, the FBI has your info.

The ATF has it, but they only scan images of the paperwork. Someone has to manually pull physical disks of the scans (or files if it hasn't been processed) and page through to find a transaction. Just as the gunshop would if they were asked. Nothing is electronically indexed or queryable.

The FBI has nothing, except maybe an abstract of the instant background check, which doesn't even confirm any sales.

 

[dsdmmat]

Once any office of the .gov has your finger prints, they all have them for life. I had to give up my DNA and finger prints to the DOD when I was in, I have no doubt that the NSA has them along with the Chinese and the Russians.

 

[subsonic]

Only for up to 5 years back isnt it?

I doubt it; gun stores have to keep them for 20 years. But again, by law they can't truly "computerize" the records into a database. The only thing they can query is individual sale records. In other words if they are tracing a specific gun they pull a specific gun sale.

Unlike the fingerprint database where if you're in it whenever a fingerprint is searched against IAFIS essentially you are compared to every unknown print queried in the country.

Google Brandon Mayfield. He was a random Oregon attorney arrested for the Madrid bombings because as a lawyer his fingerprints were in the database and the computer matched him to the latent prints on one of the bomb bags.

 

[subsonic]

Once any office of the .gov has your finger prints, they all have them for life. I had to give up my DNA and finger prints to the DOD when I was in, I have no doubt that the NSA has them along with the Chinese and the Russians.

That's pretty much what the fingerprint form FD-258 says.
That's not the case for all state/local purposes though.

 

[Deplorable Me]

Years ago, fingerprints were paper cards and took up storage space. Cross referencing was tedious and time consuming. Currently, fingerprints are taken and stored electronically. Consider the leaps forward in electronic storage and speed. There's no telling who has access to what databases. Data bases are also backed up in multiple locations. The technology also exist to scan in all those previously taken paper cards.

Short answer: Your ass is owned and you have no privacy .

 

[togmaster]

The ATF has it, but they only scan images of the paperwork. Someone has to manually pull physical disks of the scans (or files if it hasn't been processed) and page through to find a transaction. Just as the gunshop would if they were asked. Nothing is electronically indexed or queryable.

The FBI has nothing, except maybe an abstract of the instant background check, which doesn't even confirm any sales.

Once an image is scanned it is searchable.

 

[kev74]

I have a $50 printer/scanner that converts scanned images to text. I'll bet ATF, State Police, etc. have similar technology.

You're already on a list whether you like it or not.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Just wait until they start asking for a DNA sample it wouldn't surprise me

It's called a tribute.

 

[Bananabandit]

Once any office of the .gov has your finger prints, they all have them for life. I had to give up my DNA and finger prints to the DOD when I was in, I have no doubt that the NSA has them along with the Chinese and the Russians.

Then why must I pay for fingerprints over and over for any reason? If they have them somewhere..why should I pay? Cause fuck you thats why

 

[MoMan]

I've managed to get through life as a professional law abiding citizen up to now without ever being fingerprinted so I see this as rather intrusive.

Apparently you have not applied for a NYS PP. If/when you decide to apply for 1, your ass will be owned by .gov!!

 

[Bananabandit]

Apparently you have not applied for a NYS PP. If/when you decide to apply for 1, your ass will be owned by .gov!!

And the rest of your body...

..and your newborn

 

[subsonic]

Apparently you have not applied for a NYS PP. If/when you decide to apply for 1, your ass will be owned by .gov!!

Correct, and fingerprints are the least of why I have not.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Correct, and fingerprints are the least of why I have not.

So you value not getting fingerprinted over personal defense when out and about?

 

[subsonic]

I have a $50 printer/scanner that converts scanned images to text. I'll bet ATF, State Police, etc. have similar technology.

You're already on a list whether you like it or not.

They have it but they don’t use it for ATF firearm sale records. It’s a statutory requirement that goes way back and is well documented.

Changing that is high up on the antigun lobby’s list so it could change in the future but it hasn’t yet. Whether they would go back and index the old records before the law change is another matter as well.

 

[subsonic]

So you value not getting fingerprinted over personal defense when out and about?

I have my own reasons and they’re no more your business than the government’s. As I said it’s not even about the fingerprints, it’s about the larger regime we have in NY around pistol laws and licensing.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I have my own reasons and they’re no more your business than the government’s. As I said it’s not even about the fingerprints, it’s about the larger regime we have in NY around pistol laws and licensing.

So if it isn't my business, don't post online on a forum.

That's like me saying that I like the Sig P86543 and you asking why and me telling you that it's none of your business.

No need to get defensive. It was a simple question.

 

[subsonic]

So if it isn't my business, don't post online on a forum.

That's like me saying that I like the Sig P86543 and you asking why and me telling you that it's none of your business.

I was asking what the ATF does with your prints and remarking that so many folks (disproportionately in states with liberal gun/pistol laws given they allow SBSs and suppressors in the first place) don’t seem to think it’s that big of a deal. I wasn’t inviting speculation or discussion as to my ownership or reasons of having/not having a pistol/permit.

You have to make a choice if you live in NY if you want to legally own a pistol you have to forfeit a great deal of your gun liberties in general and weigh whether or not that’s worth that trade off. For me, at this time, it’s not.

Not everyone is even in a place where getting a pistol permit in their county is feasible for them even if they are of demonstrably good character and would like to. Others could but are not willing to yield so much discretion and invasion of their privacy and gun rights to the system (regarding all of their guns, not just their pistols).

 

[kev74]

They have it but they don’t use it for ATF firearm sale records. It’s a statutory requirement that goes way back and is well documented.

Changing that is high up on the antigun lobby’s list so it could change in the future but it hasn’t yet. Whether they would go back and index the old records before the law change is another matter as well.

FBI has openly stated that they do not purge / destroy NICS check data within 24 hours, as is required by law. ATF and NYSP are known to have both seized and copied 4473s and bound books during audits. If you've ever bought or transferred a gun through an FFL, you're safe assuming you're on a list already.

Back to your original question, your fingerprints are submitted to the FBI and run against their database of known criminals. They are also kept on file. The agency that originally took and submitted your prints to the FBI likely also keeps a copy - government tends keep data, at least for a while.

 

[kev74]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds were slipping facial recognition into larger sporting goods / outfitter / gun stores already.