NY AG James proposing major changes to Article 35 (self-defense)

C3D

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Tish James has given us this press release today that would seem to intend major changes to Article 35 of the Penal Law, aka Justification, aka self-defense.

The changes seem aimed at police but these may be implemented more broadly. They include:

The Police Accountability Act seeks to amend this law by establishing a “last resort” standard, whereby use of force must be a last resort that officers can only employ when there are no reasonable alternatives to avoiding force or reducing the force used. Officers must instead exhaust alternatives, including de-escalation, lower levels of force, verbal warnings, and other methods.
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Rapist holding a knife to your wife's throat? I hope you try to de-escalate before defending her.

The Police Accountability Act seeks to eliminate justification for lethal force when an officer simply suspects an individual has engaged in particular criminal conduct. Lethal force should only be used in the most exigent of circumstances and demands higher standards of proof before an officer may use lethal force.
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Guy pointing a gun in your direction? You better be clear and convinced (or beyond a reasonable doubt) that he's going to shoot you before defending yourself.



I'm sure the bill once released will be even worse, and certainly is a disaster for police. I hope NRA-ILA, NYSRPA others take note of this coming travesty.
 
Phazer

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With these changes, you'd have to be crazy to want to be a police officer in New York. Well...at least a police officer that really wanted to do good and help people who are being attacked by criminals. If you just want to be a revenuer or pencil pusher, things will still be alright.

Police will have to avoid all confrontations if they want to avoid legal entanglements. For example: Police get called to deal with drug dealers working in a back alley. On their way to the alley, they turn on their lights and sirens and drive really slowly up the block. By the time they get to the scene, remarkably, nobody is there. Oh well...nothing to report.
 
dwa12479

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Phazer said:
With these changes, you'd have to be crazy to want to be a police officer in New York. Well...at least a police officer that really wanted to do good and help people who are being attacked by criminals. If you just want to be a revenuer or pencil pusher, things will still be alright.

Police will have to avoid all confrontations if they want to avoid legal entanglements. For example: Police get called to deal with drug dealers working in a back alley. On their way to the alley, they turn on their lights and sirens and drive really slowly up the block. By the time they get to the scene, remarkably, nobody is there. Oh well...nothing to report.
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Anyone in this country right now in any state that wants to voluntarily become LEO should be immediately disqualified for failing a psych eval. You'd have to be completely NUTS to put yourself in the situation.
 
tirwin1

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I keep reading and hearing the phrase "de-escalation". That seems to be the new catch phrase. As if everything is simply a misunderstanding that can be resolved by talking. More ignorant liberal horseshit from people who have no idea what the real world is like.
 
Carlos Hathcock

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My friend retired last October from the state police. Solid guy. Wanted to go a little bit longer (1-2 years). with everything going on since last summer he decided to walk away from a good paying job and end it early. Summary: just not worth the risk with all the new bullshit giving criminals more rights than the officers.
 
Saltwater60

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Carlos Hathcock said:
My friend retired last October from the state police. Solid guy. Wanted to go a little bit longer (1-2 years). with everything going on since last summer he decided to walk away from a good paying job and end it early. Summary: just not worth the risk with all the new bullshit giving criminals more rights than the officers.
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Many are in this situation. My brother too but the dumbfuck is set to retire in January and bought a $530,000 house.
 
spat

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C3D said:
Tish James has given us this press release today that would seem to intend major changes to Article 35 of the Penal Law, aka Justification, aka self-defense.

The changes seem aimed at police but these may be implemented more broadly. They include:



Rapist holding a knife to your wife's throat? I hope you try to de-escalate before defending her.



Guy pointing a gun in your direction? You better be clear and convinced (or beyond a reasonable doubt) that he's going to shoot you before defending yourself.



I'm sure the bill once released will be even worse, and certainly is a disaster for police. I hope NRA-ILA, NYSRPA others take note of this coming travesty.
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Legally the standard for deadly force for a cop in NY is almost the same as anyone else.

Practically they are not remotely held to the same standard.

If the courts refuse to implement the law as written, that is not a problem you can fix with more laws.

But legislators are the classic example of "when all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".
 
Blimey

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I can think of damn few videos I’ve seen in which police shot and clearly had another alternative. I can think of a few but it’s rare.
 
C3D

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Just to emphasize, there is no evidence that these standards won't apply to everyone, not just police. So you will need to prove you attempted to de-escalate in a self-defense shooting, or be held to an extremely high standard of belief that your life was in danger.
 
Chevusa

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Still won’t/ doesn’t change split second life and death decisions. Even she says so. Just more nonsense.
 
GOPerfect

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Chevusa said:
Still won’t/ doesn’t change split second life and death decisions. Even she says so. Just more nonsense.
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So, you did not read the proposed updates?

If you read them, and you still believe what you wrote, you have zero understanding of self defense in NY State.

You might want to reach out to your Lawyer instructors and see what they think. The link was posted to read the wanted and possible updates.
 
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It is unmitigated bullshit that the AG is requesting/proposing legislation. Their job is to uphold and enforce the laws of the state NOT to get involved in driving new legislation. She is completely out of her lane (and mind). She was put in office to do a job and this is not it. She is becoming more of a publicity whore than either Schumer or AOC.
 
Chevusa

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GOPerfect said:
So, you did not read the proposed updates?

If you read them, and you still believe what you wrote, you have zero understanding of self defense in NY State.

You might want to reach out to your Lawyer instructors and see what they think. The link was posted to read the wanted and possible updates.
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Heard the summary on the radio. Her own voice clip is that it will not change split second decisions. Seemed like it was more for long drawn out occurrences. I will do what is necessary to live. I'll worry about the rest after.
 
Chevusa

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GOPerfect said:
All of them? Did you understand them?
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Im good. Behave yourself and you won't have anything to worry about. I'm sure there will be checklists coming out where you will need to progress through the stages in an ongoing extended time incident. These are where someone is surrounded by multiple cops. Not a life and death split second scenario where a gun is pulled on you. The AG said so directly. Unless her press conference announcement is the opposite of what the bill actually is. In that case I cannot help you. Nor do I care too much. I won't find myself in these drawn out instances. I will just leave.
 
Cooolone

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AG's job is to enforce the law! Guess like judges, now these AG's think their mandate is to take over for the Legislature!?!? Just do your fucking job! Asshole...

Absolutely ridiculous... And if passed, anyone on the job would have to seriously consider a change, sorry, but that will be reality! Or you'll just wind up watching the world go by and not giving a fuck because who is going to try and exist under these conditions... Fuck her and all those on this bandwagon!
 
C3D

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The bill had not been posted when I wrote the OP on this one, and now that it has been released it does appear the changes are confined to the police related sections of Article 35. Meaning no imminent change to civilian standards.

However as written these kinds of things make policing impossible. An analysis by a cop hating prosecutor with the benefit of hindsight and time to deliberate on de-escalation and less lethal tactics is a trap for a PO who must make a split second decision under life-or-death pressure.

I think all NYS POs should stage a one day sickout to let the people -- and Albany -- know exactly how vital is the police's role.
 
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