NY Legal "SBR" or "AR Pistol" without having a Pistol Permit

[Eddie Gunks]

So...basically add a sig brace to any upper/barrel combo with a vertical grip and you are GTG?

Virgin lower. Not a rifle that you took apart.

 

[wdeister08]

This is why legislation based around thought is

So...basically add a sig brace to any upper/barrel combo with a vertical grip and you are GTG?

Has to have been a virgin lower, and I think legally you want to make sure the FFL form is marked as an other. I'd also like to know the exact snippets of penal code and such to know right away should I need the legal defense.

 

[SomeSoldier]

I think this might be a project for me to work on over the winter. FUAC

 

[Eddie Gunks]

I'd also like to know the exact snippets of penal code and such to know right away should I need the legal defense.

NYS Penal code 265.

You should have ALREADY familiarized yourself with it.

 

[togmaster]

Article 265 Penal Law Firearms | Dangerous Weapons | NY Law

 

[Mike1Juliet]

I was also wondering this. It has also appeared in many discussions elsewhere and from the way the law in NYS is written it appears to be a legal technicality rather than a gray area. The reason it'd be a technicality is because we're playing in finite fields of the law specifically with the ATF's interpretations and NYS's law definitions. In NYS Penal Code you'll also notice that there is absolutely no definition for a pistol which pretty much makes me think that NYS goes by the NFA definition of a pistol. Also the definition of a "firearm" I'm going to call separately "NYS firearm" and "NFA firearm" to avoid confusion. People will be incentivized to try and think these are synonymous but they aren't. They're merely homonyms, a NYS firearm is defined as:

""Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon."

Make sure to also read about what constitutes an "assault weapon" as defined here:

"Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle... (b) a semi-automatic shotgun... (c) a semi-automatic pistol (d) revolving cylinder shotgun [with associated "assault weapon" features like a pistol grip, extending/telescoping stock, etc]

This is where the technicality lies, when making one of these AR-"NFA firearms" what you're making doesn't fit the NYS nor the NFA definition of a Rifle or Pistol and hence this cannot be a NYS Firearm as defined under NYS Penal Code 265. However the problem is that if a cop pulls you over and manages to search your car and sees this, he's most certainly going to arrest you for having an "assault weapon" even though by all definitions this is not. You'll have to get a good lawyer who understands this legislation because I doubt the DA will want to see the difference and I can only assume a NYS DA would take this one of two ways. 1. to preserve ambiguity of the law and not set a precedence fearing losing, the DA won't prosecute or 2. The DA will attempt to prosecute to try and nail another simple and easy assault weapon charge and you face 15+ years in prison.

What I think anyone whose thinking about this should do is write a letter to the state police asking for clarification using the Mossberg Shockwave as an example under the SAME logic described here and described by the Police. IMO if the police can sign off on this legality then by all means you'll be golden and have a pretty solid argument on how this is legal and you can rest safe not fearing persecution. That there lies the ultimate barrier, instead of living in fear of being prosecuted for something technically legal you should pursue getting the police and by default the NYS government to admit this hole in their law and I think you'll feel a lot better using one of these things. That being said if you want to start doing this, Dark Storm Industries is the one who wrote the letter to the Suffolk State Police you might be able to catalyze DSI into doing something like this again, maybe the police would be more inclined to answer another request from a pretty big gun manufacturer there. From here I actually don't know how you would go about obtaining the necessary parts in the correct fashion or order to make an NFA firearm that is not a rifle or pistol by definition. I know you need to transfer a lower of some sort under "other" to yourself then start building from there. I'm not sure if its legal to build it yourself or does a FFL07 have to make it for you or something.

NYS Penal code 265.

You should have ALREADY familiarized yourself with it.

This, you have to seriously know the law in and out before you attempt to build something like this or commission someone else to build it for you. One missed step and you could be committing multiple felonies on the state and federal level and the state police would probably be the least of your worries.

 

[freddy]

I was also wondering this. It has also appeared in many discussions elsewhere and from the way the law in NYS is written it appears to be a legal technicality rather than a gray area. The reason it'd be a technicality is because we're playing in finite fields of the law specifically with the ATF's interpretations and NYS's law definitions. In NYS Penal Code you'll also notice that there is absolutely no definition for a pistol which pretty much makes me think that NYS goes by the NFA definition of a pistol. Also the definition of a "firearm" I'm going to call separately "NYS firearm" and "NFA firearm" to avoid confusion. People will be incentivized to try and think these are synonymous but they aren't. They're merely homonyms, a NYS firearm is defined as:

""Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length; or (c) a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length; or (d) any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e) an assault weapon."

Make sure to also read about what constitutes an "assault weapon" as defined here:

"Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle... (b) a semi-automatic shotgun... (c) a semi-automatic pistol (d) revolving cylinder shotgun [with associated "assault weapon" features like a pistol grip, extending/telescoping stock, etc]

This is where the technicality lies, when making one of these AR-"NFA firearms" what you're making doesn't fit the NYS nor the NFA definition of a Rifle or Pistol and hence this cannot be a NYS Firearm as defined under NYS Penal Code 265. However the problem is that if a cop pulls you over and manages to search your car and sees this, he's most certainly going to arrest you for having an "assault weapon" even though by all definitions this is not. You'll have to get a good lawyer who understands this legislation because I doubt the DA will want to see the difference and I can only assume a NYS DA would take this one of two ways. 1. to preserve ambiguity of the law and not set a precedence fearing losing, the DA won't prosecute or 2. The DA will attempt to prosecute to try and nail another simple and easy assault weapon charge and you face 15+ years in prison.

What I think anyone whose thinking about this should do is write a letter to the state police asking for clarification using the Mossberg Shockwave as an example under the SAME logic described here and described by the Police. IMO if the police can sign off on this legality then by all means you'll be golden and have a pretty solid argument on how this is legal and you can rest safe not fearing persecution. That there lies the ultimate barrier, instead of living in fear of being prosecuted for something technically legal you should pursue getting the police and by default the NYS government to admit this hole in their law and I think you'll feel a lot better using one of these things. That being said if you want to start doing this, Dark Storm Industries is the one who wrote the letter to the Suffolk State Police you might be able to catalyze DSI into doing something like this again, maybe the police would be more inclined to answer another request from a pretty big gun manufacturer there. From here I actually don't know how you would go about obtaining the necessary parts in the correct fashion or order to make an NFA firearm that is not a rifle or pistol by definition. I know you need to transfer a lower of some sort under "other" to yourself then start building from there. I'm not sure if its legal to build it yourself or does a FFL07 have to make it for you or something.



This, you have to seriously know the law in and out before you attempt to build something like this or commission someone else to build it for you. One missed step and you could be committing multiple felonies on the state and federal level and the state police would probably be the least of your worries.

100%

 

[Mike1Juliet]

So I went to a few LGS's today and basically pitched this exact idea with all the bells and whistles associated with making this right. Many of these LGS won't risk the trouble from what I understand, they're too caught up in the ridiculous gray areas of what is does "detachable magazine" mean or what is a pistol grip? One guy suggested I ought to just contact the ATF field office about it and see what they think since they work very closely with the state police regarding firearm matters.

Has anyone actually tried something like this? I know these are popular in Connecticut and elsewhere with Assault Weapons Bans but anyone in NY tried it? Unlike the ambiguity in pistol grips and detachable magazines this seems pretty cut and dry.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

So I went to a few LGS's today and basically pitched this exact idea with all the bells and whistles associated with making this right. Many of these LGS won't risk the trouble from what I understand, they're too caught up in the ridiculous gray areas of what is does "detachable magazine" mean or what is a pistol grip? One guy suggested I ought to just contact the ATF field office about it and see what they think since they work very closely with the state police regarding firearm matters.

Has anyone actually tried something like this? I know these are popular in Connecticut and elsewhere with Assault Weapons Bans but anyone in NY tried it? Unlike the ambiguity in pistol grips and detachable magazines this seems pretty cut and dry.

You dont need an ffl. Buy a lower. Build it yourself.

No ffl needed.

 

[Mike1Juliet]

I'm sorry for bumping this thread again but I've decided that I'm not going to try this "other" type firearm thing as it appears to be way too much trouble to risk felonies and shit. I'm just going to build a fixed-mag build using a maglock to get all my evil features coupled with that ma-15 mag-loader thing and shit and just suck it up. I went to a gunshow today and many of the FFL's there agree that its totally actually really legal but none would ever try building or selling a type of rifle themselves. They only sell the mossberg shockwave purely and only because it has a police letter behind it and a big company like mossberg actually made one.

 

[DrBleachCocktail]

11.5 with a carbine buffer tube. Shorter if you ran a rifle buffer tube

I know this is old but 10.5 won’t work?

 

[Marine Cpl]

I know this is old but 10.5 won’t work?

Too short unless you permanently attach a muzzle device.

 

[DrBleachCocktail]

Too short unless you permanently attach a muzzle device.

I was told “You can get any length barrel you want as long as overall length exceeds 26”. It just takes some specialized parts and modifications to get to 26” with a barrel shorter than 12.5”. Primarily a pinned & welded muzzle device and A5 buffer tube.”

 

[Marine Cpl]

I was told “You can get any length barrel you want as long as overall length exceeds 26”. It just takes some specialized parts and modifications to get to 26” with a barrel shorter than 12.5”. Primarily a pinned & welded muzzle device and A5 buffer tube.”

That’s correct. Whatever way you get there, it has to be over 26. A 10.5 with a carbine gas system is a hair short.

Most just build with an 11.5 because you get more benefit from it rather than gaining an inch from the buffer tube for example and going with a 10.5. With an 11.5, you get an extra 150 or so FPS of velocity.

 

[DrBleachCocktail]

That’s correct. Whatever way you get there, it has to be over 26. A 10.5 with a carbine gas system is a hair short.

Most just build with an 11.5 because you get more benefit from it rather than gaining an inch from the buffer tube for example and going with a 10.5. With an 11.5, you get an extra 150 or so FPS of velocity.

Sounds good to me, appreciate it.