Officer involved shooting, man w/ knife

[holdover]

""Some people stop fighting after getting hit for psychological reasons if vitals aren’t struck. Others don’t. The sure way to stop them quickly is if vital organs are struck.""

No argument with that.

Here's some science for you, Mass x speed = energy. If you think bullets are no different, there's nothing to discuss. you win.

 

[Airborneguy]

I hate to get into this ongoing argument, but he’s right. Especially with the typical cop hollow points which don't usually exit, which would have caused two holes for faster bleeding.

Most people stop fighting when shot, but most people trading shots or otherwise combatting cops with weapons have made a choice. It’s not like shooting a rival then running away, people know that engaging the cops means either death or eventual long term incarceration. They are prepared for that. They are going to fight hard, really hard.

The typical cop gun fight is one that mirrors Will’s scenario: the cop is going to have to hit vitals/the head or put a lot of bleeding spigots in that body to take the fight out of them. And no handgun is ideal in that situation.

If someone going to be shooting at me, I’d always take a rifle over a handgun as my means of returning fire.

 

[holdover]

I don't disagree with that. Any caliber hitting the vitals is going to take your man down. Its when you miss the vitals , possibly by millimeters is when it becomes crucial. Shooting someone in the same exact spot with a .22 or 45. may mean the difference between knocking him down or not. Hitting someone in a non vital area with a shotgun slug may kill him or put him in shock. Incapacitation is the objective. Your going to have a better chance with a larger,heavier round . Otherwise you may as well carry a .22 since there's is no advantage

 

[Marine Cpl]

""Some people stop fighting after getting hit for psychological reasons if vitals aren’t struck. Others don’t. The sure way to stop them quickly is if vital organs are struck.""

No argument with that.

Here's some science for you, Mass x speed = energy. If you think bullets are no different, there's nothing to discuss. you win.

Holdover. Energy means nothing in regards to wounding with slow moving handgun rounds. Rifles are different since the shockwave can actually disrupt an organ that wasn’t hit but was close to it.

All handgun rounds do is destroy the tissue in its path. Hollow points destroy more since it’s bigger initially. That’s it. It isn’t going to knock you out like the Internet says it will. But when the hollow point stops halfway in the body, the ball round will continue destroying tissue making 2 holes. Neither will knock you out though.

 

[holdover]

""Holdover. Energy means nothing in regards to wounding with slow moving handgun rounds. Rifles are different since the shockwave can actually disrupt an organ that wasn’t hit but was close to it.""



If energy means nothing then why don't you throw the bullets? Transfer of Energy is what does the damage. The main difference between a 556 and a .22 isn't size, its energy.[/QUOTE]

 

[Marine Cpl]

I don't disagree with that. Any caliber hitting the vitals is going to take your man down. Its when you miss the vitals , possibly by millimeters is when it becomes crucial. Shooting someone in the same exact spot with a .22 or 45. may mean the difference between knocking him down or not. Hitting someone in a non vital area with a shotgun slug may kill him or put him in shock. Incapacitation is the objective. Your going to have a better chance with a larger,heavier round . Otherwise you may as well carry a .22 since there's is no advantage

In that scenario, you are correct. A bigger round may graze a vital where a smaller one in the same spot may miss. But we are talking a millimeter here or slightly more. And how much damage will a graze do? I guess it depends.

As far as shock goes, it depends on the person. If you shoot me once in an altercation where I tried to rob you , I’ll go into shock psychologically and stop. But if the role was reversed and I had nothing to lose and got hit and knew you’d come after my family that’s right behind me next, I’ll keep fighting.

Why do you think soldiers keep on fighting after getting hit when in a fight for their lives with rifle rounds?

 

[Marine Cpl]

""Holdover. Energy means nothing in regards to wounding with slow moving handgun rounds. Rifles are different since the shockwave can actually disrupt an organ that wasn’t hit but was close to it.""



If energy means nothing then why don't you throw the bullets? Transfer of Energy is what does the damage. The main difference between a 556 and a .22 isn't size, its energy.

[/QUOTE]

Energy means nothing in regard to wounding. What I mean is 9mm+p+ FMJ Bullet in the same place as a standard pressure bullet FMJ will result in the same wound.

The only time the extra energy will matter is if it needed to travel a little further. I’m that case, the +P+ Energy will give you the extra inches of penetration where the standard pressure one just stopped short.

The same applies to bullet weight.

 

[holdover]

I was referring to physical shock, not mental. A dramatic loss of blood pressure

 

[E the massive]

Temporary wound channel.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Temporary wound channel.

Temporary wound channel from a handgun is negligible at best,

 

[holdover]

""Energy means nothing in regard to wounding.""


So a bullet in your pocket is just as dangerous as one shot from a gun? Energy is paramount. The difference between throwing a bullet or shooting it is its energy.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Energy means nothing in regard to wounding.
.

So a bullet in your pocket is just as dangerous as one shot from a gun? Energy is paramount.[/QUOTE]

And when talking about defensive handgun calibers (9,40,45) the energy difference is negligible to the point the body wont know the difference

 

[holdover]

Well I guess theres the debate right there

 

[Airborneguy]

Obviously energy is the key. It’s the difference between the various handgun calibers which is the rub here. Is it really enough to make a difference? Also I think we’re mostly talking the difference between 9mm, .40 and .45acp.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen Will argue that .22lr is equal to any of those.

 

[Marine Cpl]

""Energy means nothing in regard to wounding.""


So a bullet in your pocket is just as dangerous as one shot from a gun? Energy is paramount. The difference between throwing a bullet or shooting it is its energy.

See post 37. Energy is a factor in how much a bullet penetrates and expands.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Obviously energy is the key. It’s the difference between the various handgun calibers which is the rub here. Is it really enough to make a difference? Also I think we’re mostly talking the difference between 9mm, .40 and .45acp.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen Will argue that .22lr is equal to any of those.

Magnum calibers (from their respected barrel lenghts) are also a whole different animal

 

[Airborneguy]

Magnum calibers (from their respected barrel lenghts) are also a whole different animal

But then we start the caliber vs capacity argument!

 

[Marine Cpl]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen Will argue that .22lr is equal to any of those.

Yep. The energy on the .22lr may not be enough to reach vitals. But if it was a point blank temple shot to the side of the head, the energy on the .22 would be enough to kill you just the same as a .45 ACP in the same temple.

 

[holdover]

Magnum calibers (from their respected barrel lenghts) are also a whole different animal

In what ways?

 

[Edwardteach72]

But then we start the caliber vs capacity argument!

And not counting the very few options, most of those magnum calibers are in revolvers.. so we then bring in revolver vs semiautomatic

 

[Marine Cpl]

I was referring to physical shock, not mental. A dramatic loss of blood pressure

You won’t bleed out in seconds. It would take a vital artery to be struck and even then you can still fight for minutes if you psychologically want to. Physically, it would take minutes.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In what ways?

They can act as rifle rounds. A .357 Magnum out of a carbine dabbles with the 2000 FPS mark and becomes a rifle.

 

[holdover]

Not talking about bleeding out , shock can be instantaneous. Your body begins to shut down involuntarily . survival mechanism. Any kind of physical trauma can cause it. the body is protecting the brain by preserving blood from other organs.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Not talking about bleeding out , shock can be instantaneous. Your body begins to shut down involuntarily . survival mechanism. Any kind of physical trauma can cause it. the body is protecting the brain by preserving blood from other organs.

Yes but do you want to play the maybe game when it comes to life or death situations?

As for the magnum question, @Willjr75 handled that.


As for the shock portion...

 

[Marine Cpl]

Look at bears. A .223 will have more energy than a .44 Magnum but that energy alone will not do any more damage in regards to stopping it than a .44 Magnum of lesser energy will. The energy alone isn’t enough. The .44 with less energy will make it deeper and hopefully strike a vital.

It’s all about shot placement and whether the bullets have enough energy to reach its mark.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not talking about bleeding out , shock can be instantaneous. Your body begins to shut down involuntarily . survival mechanism. Any kind of physical trauma can cause it. the body is protecting the brain by preserving blood from other organs.

That depends on the person and the mindset.

 

[holdover]

I not disagreeing with you, if your shot you can continue to fight. As demonstrated in the first video. but mindset means zero If your body cant function.

 

[holdover]

""Yes but do you want to play the maybe game when it comes to life or death situations?""

Absolutely not.I want as much advantage as I can get. I want to incapacitate or kill the threat as rapidly as possible. which is why I lean toward the heavier calibers.If I were defending my store, I would have chosen a rifle or shotgun to do it , never a pistol just as your video demonstrated.

 

[Airborneguy]

And not counting the very few options, most of those magnum calibers are in revolvers.. so we then bring in revolver vs semiautomatic

That’s what I meant. Like .357 is probably the absolute best handgun caliber for defensive “power” but other than some older guns, its only in revolvers.

 

[Airborneguy]

You won’t bleed out in seconds. It would take a vital artery to be struck and even then you can still fight for minutes if you psychologically want to. Physically, it would take minutes.

My father was in a gunfight in the 80’s with a guy who took like 15-20 rounds and was still firing at them until he ran out of ammo. The way my father tells it, he basically died as soon as he ran out of ammo. It was like his brain was fixated on one thing and one it had to recognize a major change in circumstances, it just stopped working.