Pistol sale to out of state FFL?

[Different Drummer]

Looking for thoughts on this folks.
I saw a WTB post for a pistol I own on another firearms forum I participate at.
Having recently decided to lighten my late life burden of possessions I contacted them.
Buyer believes that I can deal directly with him and sent me information regarding another pistol that he very recently bought from a NYS resident.
Seller in NYS was from Monroe County. May even be a member here. I live in Saratoga County and don't think the powers to be in this County will be acceptable to me dealing directly with an FFL in IL.
I am looking for comments, input, or citation of any laws in NYS or Federal that would prohibit me from dealing directly with him as opposed to using a NYS
FFL holder as a go between.
I have offered the pristine pistol and all accessories at a very reasonable price and obviously would like to avoid additional monetary loss because of local
FFL fees. Buyer being a FFL holder understandably is not interested in covering those cost either.
Keep in mind that he did provide a very professionally written letter with all pertinent information as well as a copy of his FFL to the other person from NYS that he purchased from and of course would do the same for me.
Seems as though there should be one standard State wide.

 

[thegatman]

Pistols unless blackpowder must go from FFL to FFL.

 

[Different Drummer]

Pistols unless blackpowder must go from FFL to FFL.

Interesting. Can you point me in the direction to a NYS or Federal law?
Scenario: I am traveling from AZ to NY and pass through IL and stop at an FFL holders business. He offers to buy a pistol I have with me.
I cannot sell it to him? Rather, I must return to NYS and get a local FFL involved?
I am not presenting an argument. I am just seeking a definitive answer with a source to verify.

 

[IraIII]

I have sold and shipped both pistols and rifles directly to an out of state ffl. I had no problem with the Niagara county pistol permit in removing the pistols from my permit. I included the bill of sale from the ffl and a copy of the receiving ffl license as the permit office may not be familiar with the ffl.
That being said it depends on who is paying shipping of your pistol. If you are, I find that it is cheaper to use a ffl to ship as ffl’s can ship using USPS priority mail which costs less than $20 plus your ffl fee which can vary, but private individuals have to use UPS or FEDEX air shipping which can be $100. Another thing is if you use an ffl to ship they have it listed in their bound book, and if it is lost in shipping they have to follow up with the shipper (USPS), and batfe for a lost/stolen pistol, you already have a receipt and just remove it from your permit. If you want more info just start a conversation with me.

 

[nortatoga]

I think #2 will answer your question.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download

 

[Different Drummer]

I think #2 will answer your question.

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/docs/0501-firearms-top-10-qaspdf/download

Thanks for the link.
#2 deals with transferring a firearm to a friend who resides in another State. However, within the explanation it states that generally the firearm must be shipped to an FFL in the State the intended recipient lives in and then transferred to the final recipient.
If that is acceptable it would seem that a FFL holder could receive a firearm for their own personal ownership from an individual outside their State.
Agree or disagree?

 

[togmaster]

There is another thread here about the same topic. You can legally ship to an ffl in another state and get a receipt. The only issue that may arise is having it removed from your permit. Check with your county pistol office and see what thay say.

 

[Different Drummer]

There is another thread here about the same topic. You can legally ship to an ffl in another state and get a receipt. The only issue that may arise is having it removed from your permit. Check with your county pistol office and see what thay say.

I cannot find anything documented that states it is illegal. However, there are other issues with pistol Licensing that are not illegal but still come under the arbitrary thumb of licensing officials.
Just thought someone here might know where there is a law that definitively makes selling under these circumstances illegal.

 

[4WHLDRFTN]

take it to a FFL and let them ship it , you get your recp and your done . if it gets lost in the mail- porch pirated .. not your prob

 

[PA Guns & Ammo]

There is nothing in NY State law that Im aware of that prevents you in shipping a handgun to any FFL dealer unless that state's law you are shipping it to is prohibited like maybe California with their handgun roster list. That being said, your biggest issue is making sure the dealer you send the handgun to, sends you the correct paperwork to have it removed from your permit. The easiest way is just have a dealer near you ship it then that dealer can give you the paperwork to have it removed from your permit. I have purchased handguns from members here and then I just email a copy of a receipt stating the information needed to have it removed from their permit. Being that I live in this anti-American state, I'm very familiar with the laws and processes.

 

[Acer-m14]

you really get jammed up in NY if your traveling thru and run out of gas and need to sell a pistol at the FFL to buy more gas

 

[spat]

Interesting. Can you point me in the direction to a NYS or Federal law?
Scenario: I am traveling from AZ to NY and pass through IL and stop at an FFL holders business. He offers to buy a pistol I have with me.
I cannot sell it to him? Rather, I must return to NYS and get a local FFL involved?
I am not presenting an argument. I am just seeking a definitive answer with a source to verify.

There is no transaction that legally requires more than one FFL.

 

[spat]

What they say is what I would like to avoid as I suspect I know their answer. Once I do that I have placed my cards face up on the table.
I cannot find anything documented that states it is illegal. However, there are other issues with pistol Licensing that are not illegal but still come under the arbitrary thumb of licensing officials.
Just thought someone here might know where there is a law that definitively makes selling under these circumstances illegal.

What are the licensing officers going to do ?

You sell the gun, ship it to the FFL in the other state (all perfectly legal) then go down to the clerks and tell them to take it off your permit.

What are they going to do, refuse ?

"Well, I haven't got the gun anymore. The guy I sold it to is sure as hell not going to ship it back to NY just so someone will give you a receipt"

"What would you do if I told you it fell out of the boat while I was fishing ? Demand I get an FFL to drag the lake ?"

 

[Parzival]

I said it in the other thread but I have traded in a hand gun at a PA gun shop and used the receipt to have it removed from my NY permit with no issue.

If I was shipping a handgun, I’d go through my FFL though. It’s cheaper for me vs shipping myself or using shipmygun.

 

[Different Drummer]

take it to a FFL and let them ship it , you get your recp and your done . if it gets lost in the mail- porch pirated .. not your prob

Thats all well and good when two non licensee individuals are involved. However, as I am selling at no gain monetarily, if I pay the FFL fees I am now placing myself in a losing situation. I don't mind being more than fair with the price but like any sane individual I would certainly prefer not to lose money. From the buyers perspective he has an FFL. He has no interest in paying another FFL for a service that he is capable of performing himself.

 

[Different Drummer]

What are the licensing officers going to do ?

You sell the gun, ship it to the FFL in the other state (all perfectly legal) then go down to the clerks and tell them to take it off your permit.

What are they going to do, refuse ?

"Well, I haven't got the gun anymore. The guy I sold it to is sure as hell not going to ship it back to NY just so someone will give you a receipt"

"What would you do if I told you it fell out of the boat while I was fishing ? Demand I get an FFL to drag the lake ?"

I like the lake analogy.

 

[Different Drummer]

What is the deal with C&R FFL's in NYS? Am I mistaken in that they cannot transfer handguns even if they meet the
Age requirement for C&R?

 

[1075tech]

C&R handguns still need to go on your permit. Or at least in my case it did. Foreign pistol in an obsolete caliber. Made somewhere around 1898 - 1901.

Bought it at a gun store. Had to put it on my permit

 

[spat]

What is the deal with C&R FFL's in NYS? Am I mistaken in that they cannot transfer handguns even if they meet the
Age requirement for C&R?

IIRC there is an additional NYS business license necessary to deal in handguns beyond just the FFL.

Maybe a C&R with that license could ?

 

[byron]

What is the deal with C&R FFL's in NYS? Am I mistaken in that they cannot transfer handguns even if they meet the
Age requirement for C&R?

you cannot use this license for commercial purposes. The 03 FFL is only for building a personal collection of guns at least 50 years old or older that are in their original condition. In other words, it’s very much a collector’s license for the purpose of collecting.
A licensee with a C&R is only licensed to obtain firearms classified as curios or relics without being subject to the Brady law, which requires a background check on all firearms sales. A C&R cannot purchase curios and relics just for resale purposes. That would be considered dealing them, which requires a different type of license. The type 03 ffl collector’s license is for embellishing a personal collection of antique firearms only. When it comes to purchases of modern firearms, the licensee would still be required to complete a form 4473 just like a non-licensee would need to.

 

[Different Drummer]

C&R handguns still need to go on your permit. Or at least in my case it did. Foreign pistol in an obsolete caliber. Made somewhere around 1898 - 1901.

Bought it at a gun store. Had to put it on my permit

OK, I will be more specific. Can an 03FFL holder buy and sell a smokeless powder ( not blackpowder ) pistol that is 50 years past it's manufacture date? I understand that the 03FFL will also need a NYS pistol Lic. to accomplish this. Also, isn't the 03FFL solely for the purpose of purchasing for a personal collection? I thought that there was a limited of time that the 03FFL had to retain the firearm. What I am saying is, an 03FFL cannot be in the business of buying and selling firearms.
If they held the required business Lic. would the 03FFL be allowed to buy and sell firearms ( Including handguns ) as long as they met the C&R criteria?
EDIT: OOPS! Byron and I were typing at the same time.

 

[Different Drummer]

you cannot use this license for commercial purposes. The 03 FFL is only for building a personal collection of guns at least 50 years old or older that are in their original condition. In other words, it’s very much a collector’s license for the purpose of collecting.
A licensee with a C&R is only licensed to obtain firearms classified as curios or relics without being subject to the Brady law, which requires a background check on all firearms sales. A C&R cannot purchase curios and relics just for resale purposes. That would be considered dealing them, which requires a different type of license. The type 03 ffl collector’s license is for embellishing a personal collection of antique firearms only. When it comes to purchases of modern firearms, the licensee would still be required to complete a form 4473 just like a non-licensee would need to.

Thank you Byron.

 

[spat]

you cannot use this license for commercial purposes. The 03 FFL is only for building a personal collection of guns at least 50 years old or older that are in their original condition. In other words, it’s very much a collector’s license for the purpose of collecting.
A licensee with a C&R is only licensed to obtain firearms classified as curios or relics without being subject to the Brady law, which requires a background check on all firearms sales. A C&R cannot purchase curios and relics just for resale purposes. That would be considered dealing them, which requires a different type of license. The type 03 ffl collector’s license is for embellishing a personal collection of antique firearms only. When it comes to purchases of modern firearms, the licensee would still be required to complete a form 4473 just like a non-licensee would need to.

There are handguns that absolutely qualify as C&R eligible, but also are under the NY pistol laws.

Even black powder handguns fall under NYS law if you also have powder and shot, and federally you don need *any* FFL to transfer them.

 

[spat]

OK, I will be more specific. Can an 03FFL holder buy and sell a smokeless powder ( not blackpowder ) pistol that is 50 years past it's manufacture date? I understand that the 03FFL will also need a NYS pistol Lic. to accomplish this. Also, isn't the 03FFL solely for the purpose of purchasing for a personal collection? I thought that there was a limited of time that the 03FFL had to retain the firearm. What I am saying is, an 03FFL cannot be in the business of buying and selling firearms.
If they held the required business Lic. would the 03FFL be allowed to buy and sell firearms ( Including handguns ) as long as they met the C&R criteria?
EDIT: OOPS! Byron and I were typing at the same time.

C&R can buy and sell all they want. It's the purpose of the buying and selling that matters. Is it for collecting or profit.

Investing is kinda the middle ground there. Technically it's for profit, but it's not the same as running a business buying and selling.

Holding them for a long time is a good way to demonstrate that you aren’t making a business out of it, but there is no hard requirement. You could certainly buy one gun one day and sell it the next, as long as the majority of the guns in your collection were being held for long duration they would have a hard time calling that a business.

 

[Truebeliever]

What are the licensing officers going to do ?

You sell the gun, ship it to the FFL in the other state (all perfectly legal) then go down to the clerks and tell them to take it off your permit.

What are they going to do, refuse ?

"Well, I haven't got the gun anymore. The guy I sold it to is sure as hell not going to ship it back to NY just so someone will give you a receipt"

"What would you do if I told you it fell out of the boat while I was fishing ? Demand I get an FFL to drag the lake ?"

Some licensing officers have their own rules and regulations. What could they do? Suspend the license for the other firearms . I would contact them first before doing the transaction .

 

[Different Drummer]

Your first and third sentence are unfortunately so correct. That is exactly why I was looking for additional information from others who may have had some experience selling to an out of State FFL.
The person who was going to buy my Beretta had put a WTB on several forums. Someone answered his post and he made the purchase from them. Snooze you lose. My fault for being too cautious.
There is another place that someone from here recommended to me in a PM. They offered to buy for VERY close to the price I was asking from the first potential buyer. Shipping is arranged by them with UPS and they cover the cost. They have a history of purchasing from NYS owners with no problems arising.
The way things are going in the Country I am pretty much in a "I don't give a shit" attitude and will proceed with selling to them.
If things go south with my County officials I will deal with it as required if necessary.

 

[Cattafly]

What are the licensing officers going to do ?
"What would you do if I told you it fell out of the boat while I was fishing ? Demand I get an FFL to drag the lake ?"

The clerk would in all likelihood have you go to some law enforcement and file a lost or stolen form and get paperwork stating you did so. Ever lose a license plate in NY? The DMV won't replace it without you going to LE and reporting it lost or stolen. I'm pretty sure they won't make it easy where a gun is concerned.

 

[spat]

The clerk would in all likelihood have you go to some law enforcement and file a lost or stolen form and get paperwork stating you did so. Ever lose a license plate in NY? The DMV won't replace it without you going to LE and reporting it lost or stolen. I'm pretty sure they won't make it easy where a gun is concerned.

That could potentially cause a headache for the buyer some day, but if you answer truthfully it sounds like the no-ffl no-fee solution the OP was looking for.

 

[Different Drummer]

Found this today. https://www.atf.gov/file/58681/download
Item one at the top of column two answers the question in regards to federal Law.
I have not been able to find a NYS law that prohibits a non licensee from selling to an out of State FFL Licensee .

 

[Cattafly]

Found this today. https://www.atf.gov/file/58681/download
Item one at the top of column two answers the question in regards to federal Law.
I have not been able to find a NYS law that prohibits a non licensee from selling to an out of State FFL Licensee .

Every state has their own laws for accepting out of state transfers. It is best to check with the party directly who will be accepting the transfer. NY requires every handgun to be on someones pistol permit or in the possession of an FFL. I suppose if you are in possession of a handgun not on someones permit or in the possession of an FFL that some states may accept it regardless.