gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
I'm making this thread for anyone who wants to argue about ballistics rather than send non related threads off their rails. I'll start off. 45 ACP is far superior to 9mm and 7.62x39 is better than 556. And go.
The ballistics argument thread!
- Thread starter gun_slinger_boy
- Start date
Bananabandit
.338 Win Mag
22 short will out perform a 308.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
It isn't going to work @gun_slinger_boy . Too many people believe their myths and are emotionally attached to their decisions. Yourself included.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
All I want to work is for this thread to be used for ballistics/caliber debates rather than the arguments taking place in threads that have nothing to do with ballistics or calibers.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Well kick it off then. Don't just say something ridiculous. Give us some facts. Tell us why the .45 ACP is better and how it incapacitates a human body better compared to another caliber that may be a millimeter or less smaller in diameter.
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GTN
.308 Win
Sounds like left wing news in here. Just throw stuff out there and it’s true lol
As a disclaimer I know really nothing about ballistics
As a disclaimer I know really nothing about ballistics
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
9 mm:
.45ACP:
Thats all The ballistics I know.
Robin
.45ACP:
Thats all The ballistics I know.
Robin
C3D
.308 Win
.25 Auto is deadlier than .50 BMG
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Statistically speaking that is correct since more people have died at the hands of a .25 compared to a .50.
As it stands according to statistics, 9mm is the most deadliest pistol round in the world since it is the most used.
Statistics blow balls and can be skewed to say anything.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
On a serious note, any pistol round that can penetrate enough and hit a vital is just as good as any other pistol round. Where rounds differ is that some penetrate more and some expand more than others giving you the slight chance of the round nicking something you might have otherwise missed with a smaller caliber. But that nick isn't 100 percent going to stop the threat and that expansion that did so to .856 may have expanded just enough to parachute to a stop just short of a vital after going through an arm and a leather jacket compared to a round that expanded slightly smaller or didn't expand at all and made it to said vital.
It's all compromise. A good shot with a ball round to a vital beats an expanded round that missed a vital.
It's all compromise. A good shot with a ball round to a vital beats an expanded round that missed a vital.
Robin
.475 A&M Magnum
When you add up all the BMG kills from Nests, tanks, All the U.S. fighter aircraft going into the fifties, AA gun's, Bomber crews in WWII, the .25 auto isn't even a blip.
Robin
Robin
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
They all suck if you miss.
4 paws
.40 S&W
I read on the internet the new Glock 22lr revolver is the most powerful handgun on the planet.
Ballistics blow if ya can't send the round to the right place. I don't give a rat's ass about any of it if ya can't hit your target. I shoot everything up to and including the .454 casull, BUT, I'm not about to pack the casull, with it's 5 rounds. My primary carry round is 9mm. I used to carry a full size 1911 chambered in .45acp, the only round it should be chambered in (that'll ruffle some feathers!! 
), but given the defense ammo available now, I will take my G19 with it's 15 rounds any day. 
), but given the defense ammo available now, I will take my G19 with it's 15 rounds any day.
C3D
.308 Win
A single magazine of .380 rounds from this gun ended up killing 19 million people.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
Well beyond the 1950's. What's the saying, John Browning the only man to have killed people in three different centuries?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
If we are serious we can put this on a framework otherwise is the same old senseless arbitrary arguments
that get really boring and do not add any value anymore. One also has endless threads about all aspects of internal, external and terminal ballistics, separate
or all together.
Or lets put it this way...
Of all the platforms, weapons systems and rounds possible why the secret service would stick to 357SIG and 5.7FN?
That is a framework for a discussion.
Or the objective is to talk about white tail hunting within 50 yards?
that get really boring and do not add any value anymore. One also has endless threads about all aspects of internal, external and terminal ballistics, separate
or all together.
Or lets put it this way...
Of all the platforms, weapons systems and rounds possible why the secret service would stick to 357SIG and 5.7FN?
That is a framework for a discussion.
Or the objective is to talk about white tail hunting within 50 yards?
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Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
no matter what Cal .. if you have ( speaking shooting a bad guy ) double tapped him in the chest and he / she is still up and you double tap again and there still up you need a new point of impact .. like the head .. stop wasting ammo ... who knows what the bad guy is on and so jacked up ..
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Defensive use with modern tactics
Most people in a defensive situation are not double tapping, checking and repeating with calculated moves.
They shoot the best they can and hope that threat goes down or runs away.
Now, a different story is why shooting at the head for those who are actually training and know they can be effective.
Since body armor is more readily available, some people might train with newer more modern tactics.
There are calibers that are designed to defeat those barriers. Those are faster moving
projectiles that work where the slower moving calibers like the 45 or 40 caliber will fail.
This includes auto glass in many modern cars with thick glass and shallow angles.
In some instances forensics have found slow moving rounds sitting in the back seat of
cars. Auto glass and metals can be hard with substantial deflection or even rendering
rounds almost totally inefficient.
The original 9mm grach project was all about being more effective in modern tactics
and since then a huge number of options have evolved in 9mm and smaller calibers.
But at the same time companies have been releasing partition/perpetrator bullets to somewhat
alleviate this problem with calibers like the 40 and 45.
For example 45 caliber adaptations via sabot...
But in reality people serious about modern ammo and tactics are going to lean into a smaller
and more modern caliber and firearm vs. spending a fortune in specialty ammo or bullets that might
nor might not be easy to find.
Most people in a defensive situation are not double tapping, checking and repeating with calculated moves.
They shoot the best they can and hope that threat goes down or runs away.
Now, a different story is why shooting at the head for those who are actually training and know they can be effective.
Since body armor is more readily available, some people might train with newer more modern tactics.
There are calibers that are designed to defeat those barriers. Those are faster moving
projectiles that work where the slower moving calibers like the 45 or 40 caliber will fail.
This includes auto glass in many modern cars with thick glass and shallow angles.
In some instances forensics have found slow moving rounds sitting in the back seat of
cars. Auto glass and metals can be hard with substantial deflection or even rendering
rounds almost totally inefficient.
The original 9mm grach project was all about being more effective in modern tactics
and since then a huge number of options have evolved in 9mm and smaller calibers.
But at the same time companies have been releasing partition/perpetrator bullets to somewhat
alleviate this problem with calibers like the 40 and 45.
For example 45 caliber adaptations via sabot...
But in reality people serious about modern ammo and tactics are going to lean into a smaller
and more modern caliber and firearm vs. spending a fortune in specialty ammo or bullets that might
nor might not be easy to find.
gun_slinger_boy
.338 Win Mag
I can agree with this. With the bullet technology today I think caliber discussions in the pistol realm are moot (part of the reason I started this thread). I think the only thing that's left is discussing platform and capacity. More specifically which platform you're best at using and trade offs with capacity. If you want bigger calibers or smaller calibers you can get them faster slower or whatever you want nowadays and if you reload sky's the limit. For instance lehigh defense makes a 45 acp 120 grain copper solid that can travel 1350fps. Or you reload/buy a 45ACP 200 grain copper solid that goes 900fps. Either way the important part here is that you can produce/buy "barrier blind" rounds that can even pass the notorious frying pan penetration test. And obviously you can do this type of thing with any other caliber (heavy, light, fast, slow etc).
Since we all like the ballistics testing check these out and then think about what are we really arguing about?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The tests in media are a good indication but they are synthetic tests vs. an actual benchmark.
The only problem I see with light-for-caliber solid bullets like those is that the sectional density goes down considerably so the impact speed
must go up "exponentially" compared to smaller calibers and distance is a much imporant factor due to the very low ballistic coefficients. That is why companies like those leading belgian companies produce 45 and 40 cal
penetrators in the form of sabots with a tungsten or hard alloy core. They are either sabots or partition some with aluminum bases.
I do believe the best choice for the 40 caliber is the 10mm for serious yet simple woods defense otherwise stick to the 35 caliber whether
is the modern 9mm, the mighty SIG or even the hard hitting Dillon. I think in the end one hast to buy why they can manage well and
be accurate with and of course they like but in terms of modern tactics the 35 bore is so popular and so plentiful with such huge bullet
assortment that it becomes hard to justify any other bore. Also a tad smaller menas more firepower that is not that critical in Newyorkistan
but people might still prefer a 10+1 over a 7+1 or 8+1.
Ballistics is a world of trade-offs of some sort. If you want more caliber you pay a price. If you want more speed then you need more powder and if you have more speed it becomes unpractical. So, like many times less becomes more in the end.
Firepower always wins and pistols are so reliable that there is no benefit from a revolver. Even pistol barrel swaps are a lot more cost effective
than revolver cylinder swaps for practice interchanging compatible cartridges.
With all that said I still like a nice revolver but more for hobby than any serious defensive duty.
Since you are posting tests here is one by a serious youtube using a popular hp form the SIG.
This is from a popular subcompact.
This is a proven projectile from both the 9mm and 357 magnum and leaves the 40/45 cals in the dust and one doesn't need nor doesn't want more power than this. It is already pretty snappy. Very hard hitting and flat shooting though.
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Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
if they could only get the ballistic Gel high on PCP
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
And then there is this. 9mm 124 gr+p+. 1300 fps. Penetration to 13 inches. Expansion to .70 inches.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
But this is what I carry but in +P loaded by Underwood. I'm all about the Penetration.