Transferring old unserialized shotguns?

[subsonic]

I have a question about an old shotgun, it's a low-end pre-1968 (made in the '40s) shotgun that's unserialized (this model never was). I know I can be given it by a parent within New York without going through an FFL, but if it had to be transferred to someone else later how would that work? Can an FFL in New York (or any state for that matter) do the transfer with no serial number, or would it have to be serialized?

As for the gun itself it's pretty much only sentimental value, but it makes me wonder.

 

[spat]

I have a question about an old shotgun, it's a low-end pre-1968 (made in the '40s) shotgun that's unserialized (this model never was). I know I can be given it by a parent within New York without going through an FFL, but if it had to be transferred to someone else later how would that work? Can an FFL in New York (or any state for that matter) do the transfer with no serial number, or would it have to be serialized?

As for the gun itself it's pretty much only sentimental value, but it makes me wonder.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC you can sell a long gun to a resident of a neighboring state face to face without an FFL.

So, get a buddy in PA, drive down there and "sell" it to him.

Then get the buyer to drive down there and the buddy can sell it to him.

I'd check the legal details before trying this scheme, but it's worth looking into.

OTOH, how well do you know the buyer ? Don't ask don't tell was also a thing for years in the military, just saying. Maybe it's been in his safe since before SAFE.

Lastly, just keep it. You're not going to get much money for it, so why sell it ?

 

[dsdmmat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC you can sell a long gun to a resident of a neighboring state face to face without an FFL.

So, get a buddy in PA, drive down there and "sell" it to him.

Then get the buyer to drive down there and the buddy can sell it to him.

I'd check the legal details before trying this scheme, but it's worth looking into.

OTOH, how well do you know the buyer ? Don't ask don't tell was also a thing for years in the military, just saying. Maybe it's been in his safe since before SAFE.

Lastly, just keep it. You're not going to get much money for it, so why sell it ?

you are wrong. All transfers that are between residents of two different states must go through a FFL. Exceptions are made for ATF defined Family, and below.
atf.gov
May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and Unlicensed Persons | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).

OP yes an FFL can transfer a gun without a serial number. It happens everyday. Prior to ‘68 manufacturers were not required to put serial numbers on guns. Pre ‘68 guns are sold and transferred by FFLs Everyday.

 

[subsonic]

OP yes an FFL can transfer a gun without a serial number. It happens everyday. Prior to ‘68 manufacturers were not required to put serial numbers on guns. Pre ‘68 guns are sold and transferred by FFLs Everyday.

Thanks! I think centerfire rifles, pistols, and NFA items had to have serials after 1934 and everything else after 1968, but I could be wrong. And serials obliterated after 1934 are always contraband and illegal, whether they were required or not when they were applied.

 

[dsdmmat]

Thanks! I think centerfire rifles, pistols, and NFA items had to have serials after 1934 and everything else after 1968, but I could be wrong. And serials obliterated after 1934 are always contraband and illegal, whether they were required or not when they were applied.

You may be right on that. I had a pre 68 rimfire rifle from sears with no serial number on it.

 

[spat]

you are wrong. All transfers that are between residents of two different states must go through a FFL. Exceptions are made for ATF defined Family, and below.
atf.gov
May I lawfully transfer a firearm to a friend who resides in a different State?
Under Federal law, an unlicensed individual is prohibited from transferring a firearm to an individual who does not reside in the State where the transferee resides. Generally, for a person to lawfully transfer a firearm to an unlicensed person who resides out of State, the firearm must be shipped to a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) within the recipient’s State of residence. He or she may then receive the firearm from the FFL upon completion of an ATF Form 4473 and a NICS background check. More information can be obtained on the ATF website at www.atf.gov and Unlicensed Persons | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The GCA provides an exception from this prohibition for temporary loans or rentals of firearms for lawful sporting purposes. Thus, for example, a friend visiting you may borrow a firearm from you to go hunting. Another exception is provided for transfers of firearms to nonresidents to carry out a lawful bequest or acquisition by intestate succession. This exception would authorize the transfer of a firearm to a nonresident who inherits a firearm under the will of a decedent. See 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5).

OP yes an FFL can transfer a gun without a serial number. It happens everyday. Prior to ‘68 manufacturers were not required to put serial numbers on guns. Pre ‘68 guns are sold and transferred by FFLs Everyday.

Just looked it up, you are correct.

You can purchase a long gun in person from an FFL in a neighboring state, but not a non licensee. That was what I was thinking of.

 

[FrankenCub]

I have a question about an old shotgun, it's a low-end pre-1968 (made in the '40s) shotgun that's unserialized (this model never was). I know I can be given it by a parent within New York without going through an FFL, but if it had to be transferred to someone else later how would that work? Can an FFL in New York (or any state for that matter) do the transfer with no serial number, or would it have to be serialized?

As for the gun itself it's pretty much only sentimental value, but it makes me wonder.

Dont ask dont tell, if you trust the other guy.

 

[1075tech]

I'd go with the don't ask, don't tell, personally. However, I believe that the FFL can put NSN or similar annotation on the 4473.

 

[GOYABEAN]

I have a question about an old shotgun, it's a low-end pre-1968 (made in the '40s) shotgun that's unserialized (this model never was). I know I can be given it by a parent within New York without going through an FFL, but if it had to be transferred to someone else later how would that work? Can an FFL in New York (or any state for that matter) do the transfer with no serial number, or would it have to be serialized?

As for the gun itself it's pretty much only sentimental value, but it makes me wonder.

Old shotgun porn

 

[Acer-m14]

#1 .. how much are you selling it for ?

#2 can you get more from a NYS gun buy back ?

#3 LOL .

#4 Pre Dated bill of sales if you know the buyer lol .

#5 does MS13 follow the rules LOL ..

 

[subsonic]

Just looked it up, you are correct.

You can purchase a long gun in person from an FFL in a neighboring state, but not a non licensee. That was what I was thinking of.

Doesn't have to be a neighboring state either, can be an FFL in any state, as long as the long gun is legal in the transferee's home state. Some FFLs will only deal with neighboring state residents, some specifically won't sell to New Yorkers because they don't want to deal with our stupid laws and some states have more restrictive laws that impose neighboring state requirements, but not New York (for complete, non-"assaulty" rifles and shotguns).

 

[fresch]

Umm, what shotgun!?

 

[Airborneguy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC you can sell a long gun to a resident of a neighboring state face to face without an FFL.

So, get a buddy in PA, drive down there and "sell" it to him.

Then get the buyer to drive down there and the buddy can sell it to him.

I'd check the legal details before trying this scheme, but it's worth looking into.

OTOH, how well do you know the buyer ? Don't ask don't tell was also a thing for years in the military, just saying. Maybe it's been in his safe since before SAFE.

Lastly, just keep it. You're not going to get much money for it, so why sell it ?

That’s also the definition of a straw purchase.

 

[spat]

That’s also the definition of a straw purchase.

Hadn't considered that aspect of it, but I suppose you're right.

 

[pjzwtl]

That’s also the definition of a straw purchase.

Is it though? If the sale is legal not requiring a BGC in PA your not breaking fed or pa law. And FUACs law is a state law so it doesn’t follow you to PA. I may me off here but I thought a straw pitches was one made to avoid the NICS check when someone was a prohibited person?

 

[Airborneguy]

Is it though? If the sale is legal not requiring a BGC in PA your not breaking fed or pa law. And FUACs law is a state law so it doesn’t follow you to PA. I may me off here but I thought a straw pitches was one made to avoid the NICS check when someone was a prohibited person?

Read how he wrote it. Selling to one person to legalize the re-sale to another is a straw purchase as the first transaction was not bonafide.

 

[spat]

Read how he wrote it. Selling to one person to legalize the re-sale to another is a straw purchase as the first transaction was not bonafide.

What if the guy in PA has an FFL ?

Can an FFL ever make a straw purchase ?

If they can, wouldn't that make every private sale in NY that an FFL has to facilitate the background check for a straw purchase ?

 

[Airborneguy]

I’d say an FFL would negate that, as long as it’s from person A to FFL to person B who is the intended final owner.

 

[holdover]

So you can purchase a shotgun from a an FFL or a private citizen out of state so long as you don't re sell it? ( I am assuming you cant)

 

[spat]

So you can purchase a shotgun from a an FFL or a private citizen out of state so long as you don't re sell it? ( I am assuming you cant)

FFL only.

 

[spat]

I’d say an FFL would negate that, as long as it’s from person A to FFL to person B who is the intended final owner.

I think even without the straw purchase aspect you would have to do that. As per post #3 above it has to be an FFL if it's out of state anyway.

 

[holdover]

Don't you have to show state ID at the dealers? I mean be a state resident?

 

[Marine Cpl]

Being that it has no serial number and cannot ever be traced back to you...

 

[subsonic]

Don't you have to show state ID at the dealers? I mean be a state resident?

You have to show an ID to buy from an FFL for the NICS check, but you don't in general have to be a resident to buy a shotgun or rifle from an FFL, so long as the shotgun or rifle is legal in your home state and your home state doesn't have a law prohibiting it. The FFL obviously isn't required to sell it to you in any event. So an out-of-state rifle may not be eager to sell a New Yorker a "black rifle" given that federal law requires them to know and comply with all of New York's stupid rules that don't apply in the state of sale. If they don't they can lose their license or worse. They also can't transfer you a pistol, lower, or most anything that requires a background check that's not a rifle or shotgun (has to go to an FFL in your state). Basically there has to be a stock and a barrel.

This doesn't apply to sale of non-FFL goods like ammo, magazines, gun parts and so on. You can (as of now) buy a stripped lower in New York or have it transferred to you here, go to a free state, buy all the parts and legally own and use a standard modern sporting rifle (NY "assault weapon") in a free state as a NY resident. You can't legally buy the same completed rifle in that configuration anywhere as a NY resident.

 

[holdover]

Thanks , I wasn't sure. Can I buy a bolt action , say a Lee Enfield from a private seller out of state? I see a lot of good deals on armslist. I didnt know If I could drive down and get one so long as it wasnt an black rifle

 

[subsonic]

Thanks , I wasn't sure. Can I buy a bolt action , say a Lee Enfield from a private seller out of state?

Only if you meet them at an FFL to do the transfer. It can be any FFL anywhere. If you are residents of different states a direct transfer is against federal law, doesn't matter if it's your own mother, if you're both living.

 

[holdover]

All states require an FFL transfer now? before it used to be just between the two buyers, have a nice day, Thank you very much

 

[subsonic]

All states require an FFL transfer now? before it used to be just between the two buyers, have a nice day, Thank you very much

No, private sale without an FFL is perfectly legal many/most places. Was legal for long guns in NY until FUAC's SAFE act, but federal law governs when it's sold between residents of different states. That's since the Brady bill went in effect in '94, and it's why private sellers at gun shows etc. are supposed to ask for ID or similar proof of in-state residency. Federal law doesn't require them to do any particular investigation or record the sale, but if you're willfully blind to potential interstate buyers and you in fact sell to someone out of state without checking ID and it comes to ATF's attention (informant, undercover, gun recovered at crime scene etc.) then you will have problems.

 

[holdover]

Gotcha. Thanks.

 

[Acer-m14]

if only buying a auto was this complicated ..