Two Dems who support police reform carjacked less than 24 hours apart

[SonOfSun]

No Knocks dont happen because "someone has a bag of weed;" they happen because there is an element of danger indicated with that particular arrest which is deemed to warrant that level of interaction with the suspect

Not true. They do happen over "someone has drugs"

NYC family traumatized after NYPD no-knock battering ram raid of their Queens home

Tijuana Brown says she still can’t sleep through the night as she and her family try to get over the shock of a no-knock battering ram raid by NYPD cops who didn’t find the drugs they w…

www.nydailynews.com

 

[tc556guy]

That's not the police. That's the criminal court system.

The police enforce the laws that are there. The courts decide the punishment. The courts are too lenient. The police aren't letting them out, the courts are.

Its all part of the same drive thats been going on along with the "defund the police " movement, as I said. This whole problem started in late 2019 when they rammed the bail reforms through the state system. It's been downhill since then

 

[tc556guy]

Not true. They do happen over "someone has drugs"

NYC family traumatized after NYPD no-knock battering ram raid of their Queens home

Tijuana Brown says she still can’t sleep through the night as she and her family try to get over the shock of a no-knock battering ram raid by NYPD cops who didn’t find the drugs they w…

www.nydailynews.com

Not just over a " bag of weed". There are other elements at play that determine whether a swat team is utilized.

 

[Acer-m14]

Not true. They do happen over "someone has drugs"

NYC family traumatized after NYPD no-knock battering ram raid of their Queens home

Tijuana Brown says she still can’t sleep through the night as she and her family try to get over the shock of a no-knock battering ram raid by NYPD cops who didn’t find the drugs they w…

www.nydailynews.com

@tc556guy

and how many are there now where they got the wrong address and killed a innocent person .

1 is to many ... and here is 1 . ..

Effort to transform Atlanta home where 92-year-old woman was killed by police

The home of Kathryn Johnston, shot and killed in 2006 as police served a no-knock warrant at the wrong house, has been vacant ever since.

www.11alive.com

 

[SonOfSun]

Its all part of the same drive thats been going on along with the "defund the police " movement, as I said. This whole problem started in late 2019 when they rammed the bail reforms through the state system. It's been downhill since then

The bail reform, ie. letting criminals go free is a big problem. We agree there. I still maintain that's not a police issue though. All the police can do is arrest for the crimes. They don't prosecute, determine guilt and sentencing, or determine bail. That's the courts part within the confines of passed law.

Curtailing unnecessary no knock raids is not related to any of that. They still have a place for something like a kidnapping recovery, etc. However unless there is a serious life and death threat they shouldn't be used.

There is no rational reason we can't resume proper criminal prosecution (ie. stop letting criminals walk) as well as address how no knock raids are misused.

 

[Acer-m14]

When Do The Police Have A Duty To Protect Me?​

The late, great Johnny Cochran lost that argument once and for all back in 1996. And once again, the Supreme Court reaffirmed its 2005 decision in Castle Rock v. Gonzales.

There, SCOTUS reminded us the only time police have liability to citizens for failing to provide police protection is:

1. “Imminent Danger,”
2. After police accept a duty to do something,
3. When police deny you police protection based upon your race or some related civil rights violation.

Otherwise, “police agencies are not obligated to protect citizens.”​

 

[holdover]

That's not the police. That's the criminal court system.

The police enforce the laws that are there. The courts decide the punishment. The courts are too lenient. The police aren't letting them out, the courts are.

There's a lot of truth to that.

“Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.”​

― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

​

 

[tc556guy]

@tc556guy

and how many are there now where they got the wrong address and killed a innocent person .

1 is to many ... and here is 1 . ..

Effort to transform Atlanta home where 92-year-old woman was killed by police

The home of Kathryn Johnston, shot and killed in 2006 as police served a no-knock warrant at the wrong house, has been vacant ever since.

www.11alive.com

Not a good outcome, but I don't see where a mistake being made is reason to end no knocks entirely.
The world is not a perfect place. In a perfect world every house would be perfectly marked and easy to find.
In the real world thats not the case. Should the people conducting a raid to their best to properly ID the correct location to everyone? Absolutely.

 

[tc556guy]

The bail reform, ie. letting criminals go free is a big problem. We agree there. I still maintain that's not a police issue though. All the police can do is arrest for the crimes. They don't prosecute, determine guilt and sentencing, or determine bail. That's the courts part within the confines of passed law.

Curtailing unnecessary no knock raids is not related to any of that. They still have a place for something like a kidnapping recovery, etc. However unless there is a serious life and death threat they shouldn't be used.

There is no rational reason we can't resume proper criminal prosecution (ie. stop letting criminals walk) as well as address how no knock raids are misused.

We'll have to disagree. No knocks already constitute a very small percentage of warrant services.
They're used when there is a perception of higher risks to the officers, the general public, and even the subject of the warrant.

 

[holdover]

I am against no knocks unless its demonstrated that the risks to officers are very serious. Armed gangs, terrorists, cop killers, ect. too many people including officers have died . As a drug dealer, I have a lot of cash and a lot of product in my home, the people I deal with daily can be very dangerous and desperate, I arm myself because of this , not because I want a firefight with the police if they came. I dont want to kill anyone, Im in business to make money , murder is bad for business , and I dont want to give all my money to lawyers. because of the cash and product I have in my home I make sure im protected as I can be by staying armed and locking the doors , and having pittbulls . I hear someone smash in the front door at 345 AM, I pick up my weapon and in the dark I see two figures with guns , I know they are not the cops because they would have been screaming it . They are here to rob and kill me , I see them in the hallway and open fire. One dead one wounded , 4 minutes go by an a squad of Swat comes through every orifice in the house and guns me down for being a cop killer.Im not saying the police should be reckless in any way but a bit of discression should be involved before useing no knocks. The people on the inside have no idea what is happening and will definitely mistake you for bad guys, making the situation even more dangerous than it needs to be

Nobody wins. Bad day for everybody. I would have rather taken the drug charge if I had known it was the police.

Now a cop killer or people who had demonstrated a willingness to kill, Sure go ahead.

 

[tc556guy]

I am against no knocks unless its demonstrated that the risks to officers are very serious. Armed gangs, terrorists, cop killers, ect. too many people including officers have died . As a drug dealer, I have a lot of cash and a lot of product in my home, the people I deal with daily can be very dangerous and desperate, I arm myself because of this , not because I want a firefight with the police if they came. I dont want to kill anyone, Im in business to make money , murder is bad for business , and I dont want to give all my money to lawyers. because of the cash and product I have in my home I make sure im protected as I can be by staying armed and locking the doors , and having pittbulls . I hear someone smash in the front door at 345 AM, I pick up my weapon and in the dark I see two figures with guns , I know they are not the cops because they would have been screaming it . They are here to rob and kill me , I see them in the hallway and open fire. One dead one wounded , 4 minutes go by an a squad of Swat comes through every orifice in the house and guns me down for being a cop killer.Im not saying the police should be reckless in any way but a bit of discression should be involved before useing no knocks. The people on the inside have no idea what is happening and will definitely mistake you for bad guys, making the situation even more dangerous than it needs to be

Nobody wins. Bad day for everybody. I would have rather taken the drug charge if I had known it was the police.

Now a cop killer or people who had demonstrated a willingness to kill, Sure go ahead.

Maybe drug dealers shouldn't be dealing drugs. What a concept

 

[SonOfSun]

Maybe drug dealers shouldn't be dealing drugs. What a concept

Maybe Jaywalkers shouldn't be Jaywalking. Doesn't mean the appropriate response is a guns out ambush.

 

[tc556guy]

Maybe Jaywalkers shouldn't be Jaywalking. Doesn't mean the appropriate response is a guns out ambush.

We aren't talking about jaywalkers when we're discussing druggies

 

[SonOfSun]

We aren't talking about jaywalkers when we're discussing druggies

Doesn't mean the appropriate response is a guns out ambush.

 

[tc556guy]

Doesn't mean the appropriate response is a guns out ambush.

I've already covered this. The determination to use a swat team on a warrant service is done after evaluating the risk factors. Which has nothing in common with someone jaywalking.

 

[holdover]

Maybe drug dealers shouldn't be dealing drugs. What a concept

Heres another concept, Yell police before kicking in the door , for the safety of the officer and any innocent people in the house.

There was a case in Housten about 2 years ago where 4 officers were shot after serving a no knock warrent on a suspected drug house. They killed two people inside who began firing at police after police entered thier home and killed thier dog .Turns out the police had the wrong address and killed two people that had nothing to do with selling drugs .

 

[tc556guy]

Heres another concept, Yell police before kicking in the door , for the safety of the officer and any innocent people in the house.

There was a case in Housten about 2 years ago where 4 officers were shot after serving a no knock warrent on a suspected drug house. They killed two people inside who began firing at police after police entered thier home and killed thier dog .Turns out the police had the wrong address and killed two people that had nothing to do with selling drugs .

And like I said, such incidents are unfortunate but its no reason to stop conducting no knocks.
I believe that in most of these incidents that anti-no-knock people dredge up there were specific reasons why the mis-identification occurred and some agencies need to improve their practices to minimize the mistakes.
Most of the time there IS an identification made, but you don't want to hang out in front of the door for extended times. All that does is allow the occupants to arm themselves and aggress against the members of the swat team, which has by then lost the element of surprise.

 

[spat]

Not a good outcome, but I don't see where a mistake being made is reason to end no knocks entirely.
The world is not a perfect place. In a perfect world every house would be perfectly marked and easy to find.
In the real world thats not the case. Should the people conducting a raid to their best to properly ID the correct location to everyone? Absolutely.

No knocks are only appropriate where there is no alternative to prevent serious injury or death.

Note that "arrest him somewhere else" is an alternative. As is "just don't collect that evidence".


The vast majority of criminals get away the vast majority of the time. It's not worth the risk just to change that % from 97.3% to 97.2%.

So, basically they are only justified in hostage situations and similar.

Attempting to use "officer safety" as a justification fails, because a safer alternative is no raid at all.

"Destruction of evidence" is likewise not a justification. Evidence is just not worth the risk.

 

[meketrefe]

Two Dems who support police reform carjacked less than 24 hours apart

Illinois state Sen. Kimberly Lightford was targeted in suburban Chicago Tuesday night, while Congresswoman Mary Gay Scanlon was carjacked Wednesday afternoon after an event in South Philadelphia.

nypost.com

Karma, poetic justice...

 

[Acer-m14]

Carjacked congresswoman has a long history of embracing gun control

bearingarms.com

 

[holdover]

And like I said, such incidents are unfortunate but its no reason to stop conducting no knocks.
I believe that in most of these incidents that anti-no-knock people dredge up there were specific reasons why the mis-identification occurred and some agencies need to improve their practices to minimize the mistakes.
Most of the time there IS an identification made, but you don't want to hang out in front of the door for extended times. All that does is allow the occupants to arm themselves and aggress against the members of the swat team, which has by then lost the element of surprise.

The death of innocent people and police are definitely a reason to use discression . I dont think no knocks should be stopped, there are times you need it. But as an everyday practice , no. Its extremely dangerous to both parties.

The element of surprise is about 2 seconds difference , It wont stop a cop killer from shooting you either way, it really only allows the chance of flushing drugs down the toilet and missing out on a bigger bust. Its not worth the risk to either side.

I know if someone breaks down my door at 4AM they are likely to get shot. making me a cop killer , a dead cop killer. and criminals are no different. You cant expect people to drop their weapons in the middle of what looks like a home invasion. Im sure you wouldn't. BUt if someone yelled POLICE,POLICE,POLICE, get on the fucking ground. Im not going for my weapon nor would you

Every situation an officer goes to is potentially dangerous. In my opinion, most times it makes it even more dangerous and there may be kids inside that cops dont know about and conducting an operation like this theres a high chance of a gun fight. just because the guy inside doesn't know who the hell is assaulting the house.

I think its usefull tool for certain situations

 

[holdover]

2013, Henry Magee shot and killed a police officer during a pre-dawn, no-knock drug raid on his home. He was initially charged with capital murder, but he argued that he shot the police officer, who he thought was an intruder, to protect his pregnant girlfriend. In February 2014, a grand jury declined to indict him, and charges were dropped.

In May 2014, police in Georgia threw a flash-bang grenade into the crib of a 19-month-old toddler during a SWAT raid. The toddler, Bounkham Phonesavanh, was burned so badly that he was placed into a medically-induced coma.

In another high-profile case, Detroit police killed seven-year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones during a no-knock raid in 2010. Stanley-Jones was sleeping on the couch when a police officer's bullet hit her skull. (The raid was being taped for an A&E Cops-style reality show called The First 48.)


In the raid that killed Stanley-Jones in Detroit, , police had entered the wrong apartment — the one they meant to raid was upstairs.


In 2003, the commissioner of the NYPD estimated that, of the more than 450 no-knock raids the city conducted every month, 10 percent were wrong-door raids. That estimate came after a wrong-door raid resulted in the homeowner's death: when police broke into the home of 57-year-old Alberta Spruill and threw in a flash-bang grenade, the shock gave her a fatal heart attack.

 

[spat]

2013, Henry Magee shot and killed a police officer during a pre-dawn, no-knock drug raid on his home. He was initially charged with capital murder, but he argued that he shot the police officer, who he thought was an intruder, to protect his pregnant girlfriend. In February 2014, a grand jury declined to indict him, and charges were dropped.

In May 2014, police in Georgia threw a flash-bang grenade into the crib of a 19-month-old toddler during a SWAT raid. The toddler, Bounkham Phonesavanh, was burned so badly that he was placed into a medically-induced coma.

In another high-profile case, Detroit police killed seven-year-old Aiyana Stanley-Jones during a no-knock raid in 2010. Stanley-Jones was sleeping on the couch when a police officer's bullet hit her skull. (The raid was being taped for an A&E Cops-style reality show called The First 48.)


In the raid that killed Stanley-Jones in Detroit, , police had entered the wrong apartment — the one they meant to raid was upstairs.


In 2003, the commissioner of the NYPD estimated that, of the more than 450 no-knock raids the city conducted every month, 10 percent were wrong-door raids. That estimate came after a wrong-door raid resulted in the homeowner's death: when police broke into the home of 57-year-old Alberta Spruill and threw in a flash-bang grenade, the shock gave her a fatal heart attack.

"Wrong door raid" should be an automatic multi million dollar settlement. And that's if they just kick in the door and then apologize.

The problem with government effectively insulating itself from lawsuits is that they have little incentive not to screw up.