Universal Income just enough to buy Internet Access and Facebook

[BerettaGuy]

Why universal basic income is gaining support, critics

I am all for this if it eliminates Welfare - Food Stamps - Obama Phones unemployment.

In exchange, each American older than 21 would get a monthly payment totaling $13,000 a year, of which $3,000 would go to health insurance. After $30,000 in earned income, a graduated tax would “reimburse” some of the grant until it dropped to $6,500 at $60,000 in income. However, the grant would never drop below $6,500 to compensate for the loss of Social Security and Medicare.

The people on Welfare now will take a huge cut in income. Boy will they scream.

Basic income has fans across the political spectrum, but for very different reasons. Libertarian backers would replace all or most welfare programs with a monthly cash payment as a way to prevent poverty, reduce government bureaucracy and let people decide for themselves how to use the money.

but here is why it will never happen.

By contrast, “those left of center like the idea of using (basic income) as a supplement to the existing safety net,” said Natalie Foster, co-chairwoman of the Economic Security Project, a two-year fund devoted to researching and promoting the idea of unconditional cash.

In a “utopian version,” the money would “sit alongside existing programs” and go to every man, woman and child, Foster said. But if you made it enough to keep people above poverty — $1,000 a month is a popular number — “it starts to add up to a very significant portion of the GDP,” Foster said.

I suggest we all re-watch Dr Zhivago. It explains the communist utopia with pictures.

 

[Blimey]

No need for it now. Unemployment is very low and if you are unemployed currently probably you don't want a job or are temporarily out of work between jobs but you'll have one soon.

Long term I think a guaranteed income is not only going to happen, but it must happen. I strongly believe that automation and robots are going to hollow out the labor market and increasingly make people irrelevant and unable to retrain to get new work. Unemployment will creep up over time until we're into the 20's, 30's, etc. It won't be because we're in a depression; it will be because a $30k robot can outwork a person who wants a $30k salary, thus making the latter redundant. I really hope I'm wrong but I am 99% sure I'm right. Even today technology has not cranked up the unemployment market but it must be partly responsible for the growing wealth disparity.

 

[zzrguy]

I think we need a minimal income. Say your a family of four and both parents work full time job and you households income is $62,400 but the national is 75k for a family of 4 we would make up the difference of 12.5k they would also pay no taxes other then sales and property tax. This would trickle back in to the tax roles. Family with more money spend more money which means business would be bring in more money and needing to hire more staff which would give more people jobs and build the economy.

I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing no more Freeshit Army and to help the people that need help.

But the first thing they need to do is fix this Bullshit with the healthcare stop trying to swing it left or right just do your fucking jobs.

 

[Darth]

I think we need a minimal income. Say your a family of four and both parents work full time job and you households income is $62,400 but the national is 75k for a family of 4 we would make up the difference of 12.5k they would also pay no taxes other then sales and property tax. This would trickle back in to the tax roles. Family with more money spend more money which means business would be bring in more money and needing to hire more staff which would give more people jobs and build the economy.

I'm pretty sure we all want the same thing no more Freeshit Army and to help the people that need help.

But the first thing they need to do is fix this Bullshit with the healthcare stop trying to swing it left or right just do your fucking jobs.

Wut?

 

[Phazer]

You guys are nuts.

You're advocating guaranteeing able-bodied people money for nothing. That is the antithesis of everything upon which this nation was founded. It will allow ever larger portions of the population to be completely dependent on the bureaucratic state for their very lives. Those people will do only one thing with their lives: They'll vote for whoever promises them the most free stuff. THAT will be the true end of our society since unproductiveness will be rewarded while initiative and productivity will be increasingly penalized through taxes.

Wake up.

 

[Arjuna]

You guys are nuts.

You're advocating guaranteeing able-bodied people money for nothing. That is the antithesis of everything upon which this nation was founded. It will allow ever larger portions of the population to be completely dependent on the bureaucratic state for their very lives. Those people will do only one thing with their lives: They'll vote for whoever promises them the most free stuff. THAT will be the true end of our society since unproductiveness will be rewarded while initiative and productivity will be increasingly penalized through taxes.

Wake up.

^^^^^^^^
Spot On

 

[Mr. terzmo]

Why do we need to give any money away ?

 

[NY Leatherneck]

And people won't try to scam that system too??...Come on people!!

 

[Blimey]

You guys are nuts.

You're advocating guaranteeing able-bodied people money for nothing. That is the antithesis of everything upon which this nation was founded. It will allow ever larger portions of the population to be completely dependent on the bureaucratic state for their very lives. Those people will do only one thing with their lives: They'll vote for whoever promises them the most free stuff. THAT will be the true end of our society since unproductiveness will be rewarded while initiative and productivity will be increasingly penalized through taxes.

Wake up.

I agree with everything you say. That doesn't change my view that it's going to happen.

If you have a better answer for what we do when unemployment is 50% I'm all ears.

Here's the truth: able bodied or not the average person in 50 years won't hold a candle to a robot. They are economically worthless. So unless we use them for fertilizer they're going to have to be taken care of. We will get to a point where society (at least 1st world) essentially is taken care of by our machines.

 

[Darth]

If you have a better answer for what we do when unemployment is 50% I'm all ears.

Let them die?

 

[Blimey]

Let them die?

But what if you're part of the 50%? What if I am? I have a good career now but I am genuinely scared about what will happen to it in 10-20 years. And what about our kids?

If you've ever seen Wall-E that's basically what I think we're going to end up as. Fat consumers who produce nothing and are carted around all day so that we can became sated with mass entertainment. We are actively and currently, right now, creating the products of our own destruction. I pretty much share elon musk's view on AI exactly.

 

[Plater1]

It is a big freaking joke. Where do you think the money will come from? It is nothing more than income redistribution. It has worked so well in Cuba we must try it here? If you tell large companies that they will be taxed at 80, 90 or higher % then they will leave. Think about the other end of this, if everyone got more money it's a safe bet costs for everything will go up at least as much (like inflation).

 

[Darth]

But what if you're part of the 50%? What if I am? I have a good career now but I am genuinely scared about what will happen to it in 10-20 years. And what about our kids?

If you've ever seen Wall-E that's basically what I think we're going to end up as. Fat consumers who produce nothing and are carted around all day so that we can became sated with mass entertainment. We are actively and currently, right now, creating the products of our own destruction. I pretty much share elon musk's view on AI exactly.

You mean if I want to live, I'd need to do stuff for myself!?


Let them die.

 

[Catskillkid]

I like the idea of a guaranteed minimum income more than a minimum wage personally, although there are certainly problems with it. Is it wealth redistribution? At the end of the day probably, but Blimey is right. Automation is going to eradicate a huge portion of jobs out there and nothing is going to come in and replace them. Who knows what the future will hold for sure but this is probably something that needs to at least be considered.

 

[Phazer]

So unless we use them for fertilizer they're going to have to be taken care of.

Soylent Green?

 

[Catskillkid]

Soylent Green?

It is made out if people.

 

[spat]

But what if you're part of the 50%? What if I am? I have a good career now but I am genuinely scared about what will happen to it in 10-20 years. And what about our kids?

If you've ever seen Wall-E that's basically what I think we're going to end up as. Fat consumers who produce nothing and are carted around all day so that we can became sated with mass entertainment. We are actively and currently, right now, creating the products of our own destruction. I pretty much share elon musk's view on AI exactly.

And a universal income solves that how ?


What the species needs is natural selection again. AI and automation will drastically change the definition of "fittest", but we still need it.

And of course the unfit will not like it, a guy falling to his death doesn't like gravity much either, but it's inevitable.

 

[Blimey]

And a universal income solves that how ?


What the species needs is natural selection again. AI and automation will drastically change the definition of "fittest", but we still need it.

And of course the unfit will not like it, a guy falling to his death doesn't like gravity much either, but it's inevitable.

Taken to its conclusion natural selection in a world of increasing automation may eventually see the human race removed by machines.

I've asked the question: if we end up with massive amounts of automation and not enough jobs that the average person can do or train for, what are the options? One noted here is universal income and the other is letting people die. My vote goes for the former, which sounds extreme at first but less so when the alternative is to let machines replace and kill off those who are now economically unproductive.

 

[spat]

Taken to its conclusion natural selection in a world of increasing automation may eventually see the human race removed by machines.

I've asked the question: if we end up with massive amounts of automation and not enough jobs that the average person can do or train for, what are the options? One noted here is universal income and the other is letting people die. My vote goes for the former, which sounds extreme at first but less so when the alternative is to let machines replace and kill off those who are now economically unproductive.

No matter what you do, exponential population growth is unsustainable.

People will eventually outstrip available resources no matter how efficient you make things.

The question becomes what is best for the species, a few billion very capable individuals with ample resources, or a few dozen times that many who's only skill is breeding and who eke out an existence with bare minimum of resources.

My vote is the former.

 

[Phauxtoe]

NO!

 

[Blimey]

No matter what you do, exponential population growth is unsustainable.

People will eventually outstrip available resources no matter how efficient you make things.

The question becomes what is best for the species, a few billion very capable individuals with ample resources, or a few dozen times that many who's only skill is breeding and who eke out an existence with bare minimum of resources.

My vote is the former.

Capable is a relative term, though; over time I think less and less people will be employable. We can't really kill all the rest off through large televised arena matches and by loosing hunter killer bots in the low-productivity communities.

 

[spat]

Capable is a relative term, though; over time I think less and less people will be employable. We can't really kill all the rest off through large televised arena matches and by loosing hunter killer bots in the low-productivity communities.

You don't kill anyone, you just don't support them, and let nature run it's course.

If the deer overpopulate Yellowstone, they don't hunt some down, and they don't put out giant piles of food, they just let nature do what nature does.

 

[Frankly]

Tie it to sterilization. If you're too stupid to make it in the modern economy then don't reproduce and compound the problem.

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

Taken to its conclusion natural selection in a world of increasing automation may eventually see the human race removed by machines.

I've asked the question: if we end up with massive amounts of automation and not enough jobs that the average person can do or train for, what are the options? One noted here is universal income and the other is letting people die. My vote goes for the former, which sounds extreme at first but less so when the alternative is to let machines replace and kill off those who are now economically unproductive.

Blimey,

As automation increases so will the jobs to accompany them. Machines can't run forever you know. They also can't build themselves. Not without some human interaction. The job market will simply change. How did the car industry do with automation? Still need people to run the lines right? And what happened as cars get more and more advanced? You need mechanics that know how to work on all the fancy shmancy crap right? If anything I'd say there is more of a market for mechanics now than ever. What you make is seem like is we will eventually get to a state where the machines have taken over like the matrix or judgement day. As much as I'd like to see a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range in my lifetime I know I'll be long dead before then.

 

[Blimey]

Blimey,

As automation increases so will the jobs to accompany them. Machines can't run forever you know. They also can't build themselves. Not without some human interaction. The job market will simply change. How did the car industry do with automation? Still need people to run the lines right? And what happened as cars get more and more advanced? You need mechanics that know how to work on all the fancy shmancy crap right? If anything I'd say there is more of a market for mechanics now than ever. What you make is seem like is we will eventually get to a state where the machines have taken over like the matrix or judgement day. As much as I'd like to see a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range in my lifetime I know I'll be long dead before then.

Most people are not smart enough or educated enough to build machines. As complexity increases a smaller percentage of people will be able to support them.

I know people have predicted for a long time machines will crush jobs, and they have every time, it's just that other jobs have come along. I think this time is different and the employment rate will consistently drop, not just due to ever increasing socialism but less people able to compete with machines. I hope i'm wrong like others in history have been.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Most people are not smart enough or educated enough to build machines. As complexity increases a smaller percentage of people will be able to support them.

I know people have predicted for a long time machines will crush jobs, and they have every time, it's just that other jobs have come along. I think this time is different and the employment rate will consistently drop, not just due to ever increasing socialism but less people able to compete with machines. I hope i'm wrong like others in history have been.

Then they can push brooms or pick fruits instead of saying that job is beneath them.

 

[Robin]

If tomorrow everyone was reduced to, or enriched with, a million dollars, within six months, generally, those that were wealthy will be wealthy again and those that were poor will be poor again, the vast majority would be right about where they are now . What would be interesting is the fate of those inheritor's like the Kennedy's and the like.
Robin

 

[Blimey]

Then they can push brooms or pick fruits instead of saying that job is beneath them.

Who's going to hire people to pick fruit when a robot can do it 24/7 and it's cheaper? That's my point, everything like that will be automated.

If tomorrow everyone was reduced to, or enriched with, a million dollars, within six months, generally, those that were wealthy will be wealthy again and those that were poor will be poor again, the vast majority would be right about where they are now . What would be interesting is the fate of those inheritor's like the Kennedy's and the like.
Robin

True statement. It's why the bulk of lotto winners end up bankrupt (yes, literally the bulk) within a decade or so.

 

[prambo]

You guys are nuts.

You're advocating guaranteeing able-bodied people money for nothing. That is the antithesis of everything upon which this nation was founded. It will allow ever larger portions of the population to be completely dependent on the bureaucratic state for their very lives. Those people will do only one thing with their lives: They'll vote for whoever promises them the most free stuff. THAT will be the true end of our society since unproductiveness will be rewarded while initiative and productivity will be increasingly penalized through taxes.

Wake up.

Bingo!! A winner!!

A "universal income" is socialist doublespeak for "communism". Everyone ends up at the same shitty level, except for party apparatchiks, of course.

Robot/AI run factories and retail outlets are just a logical extension of cheap foreign labor.

Then what will all the people do? Read books - no, screw and make more people. Who's going to give them all the freebies then?

No one.

Can you say Soylent Green?

 

[Blimey]

A "universal income" is socialist doublespeak for "communism". Everyone ends up at the same shitty level, except for party apparatchiks, of course.

I agree.

But if I am right about where automation and technology will take employment, our current system will absolutely not work. I just think our society and economy in 50 or 100 years will be unbelievably different from today. There's absolutely no way in the world somebody can go to highschool and even get a job at all. Already you can buy a robot arm for $25k and train it to do things. It will mimic the movement it is shown and repeat, all day every day. So give it the ability to be ambulatory, better sensors, more autonomy, now you end up with something that can sweep floors or mow the lawn or lay bricks, etc. Menial, paid labor just won't exist. In some ways white collar work can be easier to get rid of because much of it can be killed off with software alone. Imagine if you could go to Alexa on amazon and tell her your legal problems and then Alexa researches everything and writes briefs and whatever else and then in court an alexa representative simply stands there and reads off whatever the amazon legal system told it to do. There goes law as a profession. 20 years spent mastering heart surgery? Awesome, here's my robot that does a better job in half the time, now go retire Dr.