Want To Shoot My 20" .308 1k!

[TheTeZ]

Hey guys,
I dont know how many of us here shoot long range like this, im sure some of us. But what im looking to do is specifically use my Remington 700 SPS Tactical with the 20" 1x10 twist .308 Barrel out to a thousand yards.
Let me get a couple things out of the way:
Yes i already have a better gun for that distance, but i want to get this one out that far.
Yes i know i shouldnt take reloading advice from people on the internet at face value,
Yes i know that the .308 isnt the best round for 1k yards,
Yes i know that a 20" barrel is also not the best for 1k.
But i wanna do it! i know it can be done. So please let those comments go and only be constructive here.

I've done a lot of research on it, and i've got a few ideas, going to have a lot to test before i can think of getting it out that far, being on the hotter end to push a bullet that far i am going to really have to check every case after i fire and work my way up. I know going transonic will be a big issue, More so than going subsonic.

I've recently seen that hornaday has made some EBR bullets that look up to the task, but they are too new to get any great feed back on. the G7 BC is .275 and they are supposed to load up like AMAX's if i remember correctly. Either way all of these rounds need to be shot over a chrono.

I've got Varget which is not temperature sensitive, then a couple that are that burn a little faster and would work well and maybe get a few more FPS from them... in the right temperatures. im thinking accurate 2460 and imr 4064 I honestly havent tried shooting these any further than 300 with this rifle so im not sure how the 168's would do at 1k, But the new hornadays are supposed to be able to do it, ill probably pick a few up to play with. The loads for most of those are between 42 and 44 grains for the powders i listen above with the 168, 175, and 178s obviously. I am thinking of going with either the hornadays or SMK's but out at that distance i hear mixed reviews on the SMK's Under that they are the standard. I'm looking to try out what ever it takes to get this gun out there with out super heavy loads, getting a muzzle velocity of 2530 is my goal and should be achievable, albeit a little on the hot side.

Has anyone shot that far with a similiar gun? (bolt, 20" 1x10 twist) And what was your recipee, Im open to trying new things, What have you used?

 

[TheTeZ]

Well, The local store, which normally doesnt carry many reloading components had 2 boxes of lapua brass in stock for 64.99 which is ten bucks cheaper than midways sale price... and they also had some 4064 in stock... so i think i may go make a few test rounds with varget and with the 4064,

Still let me know what you have shot.

 

[meketrefe]

The 308 is a 1K+ round. No the ideal but it gets there supersonic.

Amax, SMKs, nosler coompetition, and such have their days counted.

Might want to try into the 155gr and 168gr TMK and berger 168gr hybrid and hornady 168gr ELD match for popular bullets.
Also the alco 155 and 168gr.
The faster speeds of the best 155gr and 168gr should work for you better in the shorter barrel and shoot the bullet flatter
and extend transsonic range. There is no much difference between the 155gr and 168gr and the 175gr. In fact some of the
more modern 155gr and 168gr have better ballistics than the classic 175gr-180gr match bullets including some VLDs.
Try Varget, R15 and TAC.

The main thing is that you use fireformed brass since the commercial chambers are larger (looser) so by neck forming
and finding max COAL you will get more accuracy.

Lapua brass (spcially sp palma) is the best and the more economic at the end of the day. I ahve reloaded cases up to 50
times with annealing. Of course this changes depending how hot you go.

good luck.

Alco bullets...



Flat line are also very good but even more expensive and might require single feed.

Warner Tool Company, Inc.

 

[Snappo]

Hey guys,
I dont know how many of us here shoot long range like this, im sure some of us. But what im looking to do is specifically use my Remington 700 SPS Tactical with the 20" 1x10 twist .308 Barrel out to a thousand yards.
Let me get a couple things out of the way:
Yes i already have a better gun for that distance, but i want to get this one out that far.
Yes i know i shouldnt take reloading advice from people on the internet at face value,
Yes i know that the .308 isnt the best round for 1k yards,
Yes i know that a 20" barrel is also not the best for 1k.
But i wanna do it! i know it can be done. So please let those comments go and only be constructive here.

I've done a lot of research on it, and i've got a few ideas, going to have a lot to test before i can think of getting it out that far, being on the hotter end to push a bullet that far i am going to really have to check every case after i fire and work my way up. I know going transonic will be a big issue, More so than going subsonic.

I've recently seen that hornaday has made some EBR bullets that look up to the task, but they are too new to get any great feed back on. the G7 BC is .275 and they are supposed to load up like AMAX's if i remember correctly. Either way all of these rounds need to be shot over a chrono.

I've got Varget which is not temperature sensitive, then a couple that are that burn a little faster and would work well and maybe get a few more FPS from them... in the right temperatures. im thinking accurate 2460 and imr 4064 I honestly havent tried shooting these any further than 300 with this rifle so im not sure how the 168's would do at 1k, But the new hornadays are supposed to be able to do it, ill probably pick a few up to play with. The loads for most of those are between 42 and 44 grains for the powders i listen above with the 168, 175, and 178s obviously. I am thinking of going with either the hornadays or SMK's but out at that distance i hear mixed reviews on the SMK's Under that they are the standard. I'm looking to try out what ever it takes to get this gun out there with out super heavy loads, getting a muzzle velocity of 2530 is my goal and should be achievable, albeit a little on the hot side.

Has anyone shot that far with a similiar gun? (bolt, 20" 1x10 twist) And what was your recipee, Im open to trying new things, What have you used?

You can easily reach 1,000 with a Remington 700 in .308. I can reach 1,000 with my 700 Police in 20" fluted and 26" non-fluted, and with my 700 eXtreme XHR.
1) I have not yet reloaded .308 so I use Lake City Long Range or Black Hills Match (red box).
2) Pick to use one of your scopes with the most MOA of range. If you do not already have glass, I recommend the Leupold Long Range Tactical Mildot Illuminated. I have that on one of my two 700 P's. For the other I went with Springfield Armory Government Gen IV. For the XHR I went originally with the Pentax Lightseeker 30, but moved to the Nikon Monarch.
3) Get 20 degree scope mounts; but make sure to get mounts that were serialized to each other. Badger Ordnance Scope Mounting Systems do this - the rings are made specifically for each other and checked with lasers. A bit more expensive (20 degree tapered is $150), but Badger Ordnance also makes a one-piece mount/rings specifically for long range.
Here is my setup:

 

[TheTeZ]

Thanks, The hornady 168gr ELD match bullets really peaked my interest, but there doesnt seem to be much info out there about them.

I have heard all kinds of mixed reviews about using the 155s and even the 168s. at that range. it cant hurt to load up some of each i guess. I do wanna order some of the ELD's though.
Have you actually shot 155's or 168s from a barrel that short that far? or is this just recycled information. (NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT) im just curious if you yourself have done it. seriously. No disrespect meant.

 

[TheTeZ]

i havent picked a scope yet. i will be purchasing one of them in the near future. The rifle ill be using like i said, i didnt think i'd actually have the chance to shoot 1k, so the glass on it really isnt up to the task. I've been looking into a few optics, and have looked at the leupold. I was planning on probably ending up getting a 20moa base as long as the scope i get needs it. I did not know about the matching of the bases to rings though... thats some good info

 

[Snappo]

Thanks, The hornady 168gr ELD match bullets really peaked my interest, but there doesnt seem to be much info out there about them.

I have heard all kinds of mixed reviews about using the 155s and even the 168s. at that range. it cant hurt to load up some of each i guess. I do wanna order some of the ELD's though.
Have you actually shot 155's or 168s from a barrel that short that far? or is this just recycled information. (NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT) im just curious if you yourself have done it. seriously. No disrespect meant.

At 1,000 yards my 168 grain Black Hills is U 42.4 MOA and the velocity at that distance is 1066 with an energy of 424 foot lbs.

 

[Snappo]

i havent picked a scope yet. i will be purchasing one of them in the near future. The rifle ill be using like i said, i didnt think i'd actually have the chance to shoot 1k, so the glass on it really isnt up to the task. I've been looking into a few optics, and have looked at the leupold. I was planning on probably ending up getting a 20moa base as long as the scope i get needs it. I did not know about the matching of the bases to rings though... thats some good info

Any 60 MOA scope by manufacturers like Leupold, Nightforce, Nikon, etc. should be fine. I have been slowly moving over to all Leupold and Nikon; and ditching my Pentax scopes.

 

[meketrefe]

The gold standard has been Federal Gold match and the black hills like snappo suggested also awesome.
Black hills is now using the polymer tipped 168gr tmk too that perhaps you want to test.
I have shot the modern 155gr and 168gr up to 800-900 yards only but enough to know they shoot flatter and further than the 175 smks.
The best 155gr are used in palma leagues with great success and even in short barrel will produce enough speed.
The 168gr Amax is an execellent long range round for coyotes and goats out to 800-900 yards and will get there to 1K supersonic
and it seems with the upgraded tips in the ELD, even better.

Mixed reviews are always going to be there. In the internet everyone has an opinion since opinions are free of charge.
You need to work up a couple of loads. I would start with the 168gr ELD if cost is also a factor.
you should be able to get them to 2700fps in that barrel and from there do the math.
If they work then there you have it, an affordable super accurate 1K load. But also consider the TMK but
if extra cost is not a problem order 100 units from alco.

 

[Snappo]

Meketrefe has a point. We all have opinions; but the proof is in the pudding as they say. Maybe try out some combinations at 1,000 at a range somewhere. My range at home is only 600. I have to go to a friend's farm to shoot 1,000. I'm sure lots of folks can loan you different glass to try out. I have yet to shoot Nightforce but some people I know absolutely rave about the quality. And these are people who also shoot Leupold, Zeiss, etc.

 

[JohnD13]

Quick question, not being too familiar with long range shooting, what are 20 degree scope mounts?

 

[Snappo]

Quick question, not being too familiar with long range shooting, what are 20 degree scope mounts?

A flat setup would be when your scope is parallel to the barrel. A 20 degree offset gives you an extra 20 degrees of drop. So let's say you have a 40 MOA scope. You can dial up 20 MOA's and down 20 MOA's. So what happens when your scope only goes up 20 MOA's but the bullet has dropped 21 MOA's? You can not shoot at that distance using the center of your crosshairs. So the mount is higher on one side than the other (back to front) and so you are effectively adding 20 degrees of MOA to the max range of your scope.

 

[TheTeZ]

Quick question, not being too familiar with long range shooting, what are 20 degree scope mounts?

Scopes have a certain amount of adjustment, Lets pretend its 60 moa, from center, you;ve got about 30 moa up and down, If your shooting at extreme ranges you may need to adjust your scope more than that 30 moa allowed by the scope, so you put it on a riser that will make up for 20 moa...

The issue comes if youre trying to save money on your optics and want to rezero at 100 yards. Not all scopes will have quite enugh adjustment.

 

[MilesTeg]

It appears that you've done your

Quick question, not being too familiar with long range shooting, what are 20 degree scope mounts?

It allows for more range of correction on the scope at range. Basically when your shooting distance it allows your scope adjustments to be near the center of their travel range. This makes it so you can put more elevation correction on the shot also.

 

[TheTeZ]

Meketrefe has a point. We all have opinions; but the proof is in the pudding as they say. Maybe try out some combinations at 1,000 at a range somewhere. My range at home is only 600. I have to go to a friend's farm to shoot 1,000. I'm sure lots of folks can loan you different glass to try out. I have yet to shoot Nightforce but some people I know absolutely rave about the quality. And these are people who also shoot Leupold, Zeiss, etc.

My shooting partner has a nightforce on one of his rifles... it's great.

 

[meketrefe]

At this point and since you are developing something new stick to the most modern and best bullets so skip the SMKs.
The polymer tip are a lot more consistent and nobody wants to work the meplat anymore.
Also you don't really need a long range runway to know if they are good.
to get started what you need to know is:

- Speed at the muzzle.
- Ballistic coefficient (corrected ballistics, not the advertised)
- Group them consistently at 100 or 200 yards ( ideally well below moa).

Then you know you are ready in terms of bullet and rifle.

The rest of the equipment, a good glass, wind calling, calculation and training is a different story. Most times the most overlooked factor specially
some quality professional training and the practice that goes along with it.
But shooting at known distances in familiar conditions doesn't have to be too hard. Just might need to spend more bullets.
I would get prone and forget about the bench. get used to drive the rifle with authority.
A good support or pair of legs is paramount. In one good weekend of tail gate shooting will learn a lot of things,
things you will have to work on.

do you have a good glass?

 

[JohnD13]

Thanks for the explanation guys, thought that might be the case and now I know.

 

[TheTeZ]

At this point and since you are developing something new stick to the most modern and best bullets so skip the SMKs.
The polymer tip are a lot more consistent and nobody wants to work the meplat anymore.
Also you don't really need a long range runway to know if they are good.
to get started what you need to know is:

- Speed at the muzzle.
- Ballistic coefficient (corrected ballistics, not the advertised)
- Group them consistently at 100 or 200 yards ( ideally well below moa).

Then you know you are ready in terms of bullet and rifle.

The rest of the equipment, a good glass, wind calling, calculation and training is a different story. Most times the most overlooked factor specially
some quality professional training and the practice that goes along with it.
But shooting at known distances in familiar conditions doesn't have to be too hard. Just might need to spend more bullets.
I would get prone and forget about the bench. get used to drive the rifle with authority.
A good support or pair of legs is paramount. In one good weekend of tail gate shooting will learn a lot of things,
things you will have to work on.

do you have a good glass?

Thanks Meketrefe i appreciate your input.

I do plan on going with Modern Bullets, A-max and the ELD's from hornady

The speed at Muzzle is the first thing im going to try and get down, After i get my test rounds made up i will be shooting over a chrono to figure out the MV which will go into the BC.
Im going to be working on this and trying to find the most accurate load to shoot at 100 preferably with somewhere around a 1/2" Moa or less, Hornaday Steel Match will constantly give me sub 1/2 Moa. at 100 yards. But no way it would shoot out to 1k. After getting the load down with a MV im happy with, ill head out to the 1000 yard range and test the load at some further ranges. (that range is about 3 hours away, so not going to go too often) My Shooting partner Has all the fancy gear that i will be taking advantage of, From his high end kestrel,

The only thing at this point is getting a good optic for this rifle. I\ve got a nice optic on there, but its a Hunting Optic with BDC (which was a stupid mistake) The Nikon BuckMaster, I May end up taking the Monarch off one of my other rifles for the time being, but really want to get something else for this rifle.

 

[meketrefe]

john you might know the angles are measures in degrees and then in minutes and seconds using a base of 60 just like time.
A 90 degree in a circle will be like 3 o'clock in a watch.
So imagine a clock hand indicating 1 degree more, only that is not 1 full degree but 1/3 of that that is 20 minutes of one degree (20 MOA).
That very tiny amount is a lot in the long distance so when a scope adjusts for elevation there is less risk of not having
enough elevation adjustment because it is borrowing form that 1/3 of a degree downward cant we install it with.

But even if a scope wouldn't run out of adjustment there is another good reason. Lets say one person knows is going to shoot long shots
even if it is not extreme long range. By having the cant instead of working the elevation so much at those distances
the image will be closer to the mechanical center of the scope that will be less likely to display any distortions introduced
by lenses being pushed away from natural alignment. In the ideal world we would solve this by using corections systems
that are outside the scope but those will be heavy, cumbersome and prone to rust, debris and inconsistencies.
That is why the moving parts are inside but the objective lens fixed in the front lens.

A base or scope rings with a cant are not critical for the average use but they will not hurt neither.
One needs to consider this when buying scopes where the bell of the scope is very close from the barrel and in some
cases the 20MOA might force to buy taller rings and thefore impact all the ergonomics.
That is why it is always better to buy rings after the scope and afer with the scope at hand measuring what is the ideal
height and setup for us.

 

[meketrefe]

Thanks Meketrefe i appreciate your input.

I do plan on going with Modern Bullets, A-max and the ELD's from hornady

The speed at Muzzle is the first thing im going to try and get down, After i get my test rounds made up i will be shooting over a chrono to figure out the MV which will go into the BC.
Im going to be working on this and trying to find the most accurate load to shoot at 100 preferably with somewhere around a 1/2" Moa or less, Hornaday Steel Match will constantly give me sub 1/2 Moa. at 100 yards. But no way it would shoot out to 1k. After getting the load down with a MV im happy with, ill head out to the 1000 yard range and test the load at some further ranges. (that range is about 3 hours away, so not going to go too often) My Shooting partner Has all the fancy gear that i will be taking advantage of, From his high end kestrel,

The only thing at this point is getting a good optic for this rifle. I\ve got a nice optic on there, but its a Hunting Optic with BDC (which was a stupid mistake) The Nikon BuckMaster, I May end up taking the Monarch off one of my other rifles for the time being, but really want to get something else for this rifle.

NP, everyone is contributing with their bid.
If you don't have a chrono perhaps you can borrow one. There is another way to find out speeds that is with a well known bullet
derive it form trajectory that is derived from impacts at different distances but that is less precise as there are more variables.
The speed doesn't have to be 100% accurate but a starting point so you know. once you have that you might still investigate
impacts and deduct your adjustments for the coeficients and other factors. In good calculators you will have a retardation coefficient
that you can adjust a different speed spectrums.

Regarding the scope you could try but then you will have a much harder time. Specially because how do you translate corrections that need be
true to a scope that might be difficult to adjust correctly. I mean, people have shot with worse glass than that but then you will have to go
thorugh a battery of tests to find out what the scope does and what equates to when you put a correction including errors and then
make sure it can return to zero and you know what you are adjusting to is the actual value. So it can be done but it can get more complicated.
Also make sure the scope tracks in both axis and stays zero.
And after all that time if you make it work you will have to start all over again when you realize you need a better tool.
so my advice is get a steel base, bed it, get a nice scope measure what rings you need and then order them also in steel and properly
plum and level that scope that is a good time to get acquainted with the mechanics and design.
Ideally a scope that has consistent units of measure and it stays true all the way. If you are constrained check the SWFA but also the weaver tactical
that you have with mil-mil setup and first focal plane for added accuracy and versatility.
But there are many good ones in the starting / mid tier segment from 700-1100 dollars.

 

[MilesTeg]

From the sounds of it you have done your research well. You have a handle on theory and equipment needed also existing equipment limitations. You have gotten good advice in these areas, but there are two areas that haven't been touched upon yet.

First proper skill set/ experience. This is all part of the journey and you will learn as you go. My recommendation here is to find a mentor and keep an open mind.

Secondly your reloading procedure. You have a good handle on components. The key is to be consistent. Even if your off by a few tenths of a grain from the actual weight, as long as it's repeatable you can work with it. I have seen bench rest shooters that we're careless with their reloading procedures and the results can send you down the rabbit hole looking for problems.

Personal experience I shoot my 308 routinely at 600yds. I have run out of time and money to push much farther. I had wanted to find a mentor to help me go farther but have had no luck.

 

[meketrefe]

exactly miles, consistency is the name of the game.
consistency = repeatable accuracy.

 

[TheTeZ]

Im aware of some of what you already said, but the fact its being said is great, that way when someone out there in internet land looks to do something similar, info is there for them to read.

My Shooting Partner has a chrono and i can use it at any time, so no worries there. Once i get the round figured out and the MV down i can really move on.
As for the glass, like i said, im still going to be looking into different options, i really want to get something dedicated to this rifle, I am probably going to be looking at the roughly $1000 range, But we will see what i end up with...
It's going to be a little bit before i get a chance to shoot my test loads, and it'll be even longer before i get the scope.
I just gotta figure out which components i will be using.

What are your thoughts on 4046 vs Varget? I'm going to be loading Hornaday Match 168's and Amax 178's in Lapua Brass

 

[TheTeZ]

From the sounds of it you have done your research well. You have a handle on theory and equipment needed also existing equipment limitations. You have gotten good advice in these areas, but there are two areas that haven't been touched upon yet.

First proper skill set/ experience. This is all part of the journey and you will learn as you go. My recommendation here is to find a mentor and keep an open mind.

Secondly your reloading procedure. You have a good handle on components. The key is to be consistent. Even if your off by a few tenths of a grain from the actual weight, as long as it's repeatable you can work with it. I have seen bench rest shooters that we're careless with their reloading procedures and the results can send you down the rabbit hole looking for problems.

Personal experience I shoot my 308 routinely at 600yds. I have run out of time and money to push much farther. I had wanted to find a mentor to help me go farther but have had no luck.

Thanks

As far as my reloading procedure, When i reload i keep track of every single thing i do, And do everything exactly the same, I keep other distractions out the way and am way to anal about checking an rechecking my measurements, seating depths, etc. it probably started because when i got into reloading, i didnt know what i was doing so i was Overly cautious, And that has served me well. I'm not worried about getting consistent results with my loads, I dont think their will be a problem there (i use a single stage press for all precision rifle loads) Where i run into a problem is Time. I dont get to shoot nearly as often as i'd like so i make up my ladder loads, and when i get to shoot them isn't any time soon, so if i need to keep trying, its a long process.

As for practice/training My partner is more versed than i am, but we pull the trigger about the same. i have only ever shot out to 300 yards, and can do so fairly well, i KNOW that things will change when i open up that distance, As he told me about his first and most recent trip to the 1k range.


Oh, on another note, Heres the other rifle we shoot distance with. (his and we're in PA)

 

[meketrefe]

I have not used 4046.
Varget, R15, TAC, Big game are very popular.

 

[TheTeZ]

Gottcha. Doing some research, if found people like it because it burns faster than varget, so you can push the bullet a little faster in the shorter barrel. But Varget is less temperature sensitive. I May load some with both, but if they seem to be similar at all in resultsi will stick with Varget.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

Just doooitmon!

I dont think its that hard.

Lemme put it this way. I shot my stock scar 17, with a 16 inch pencil barrel, 1:12 twist with some pulled SMK 175 over XBR 8208 that i loaded up in LC brass.

It took 3 shots to hit the 875 yard target....., it ws a 2 MOA target.

So......as you can see, using the wrong barrel length, wrong profile, wrong twist, wrong weight for tne twist, AND the wrong action all seems to have produced results that the WWW says you cant.....

OH! And i am not really all that great of a shot!

Let us know how you do.

 

[TheTeZ]

oh, i understand that bullet guy... I mean , i started out just looking for info on load recipes.

 

[Eddie Gunks]

i started out just looking for info on load recipes.

175SMK over 41.5 gr. xbr 8208

 

[meketrefe]

I think the idea is to start shooting and then you can play with different venues, distances
and targets. Then that is when you start to see a lot of missing and when the training and
applied fundamentals through practice are required.
Given enough bullets and someone helping tracing the shots anyone can do it.
A different story is to score at any distance, in any conditions including from a cold
rifle. No different than training to be the best long range hunter one can be.

It is all about the training, time and money. But all shooting sports are like that if one
wants to be good.