What’s At Stake In The Guns Case At The Supreme Court?

[livingston]

What’s At Stake In The Guns Case At The Supreme Court?
attorneys for March For Our Lives, a youth-led movement founded in the aftermath of the mass shooting at a high school in Parkland, Florida, filed a brief arguing the court should keep this movement in mind and not make too broad of a ruling on gun rights.

“They’re asking the court to leave enough flexibility in the review of regulations to let public opinion and political developments have a say,” said Ira Feinberg, the lead counsel for March For Our Lives.

Feinberg added that, while the New York law is unusually restrictive, the issues at stake are much larger. The court, in an opinion striking down that law, could apply what’s known as “strict scrutiny” to any regulation of gun rights. Strict scrutiny would require the government to make the case for why any regulation is necessary and would effectively guarantee public safety. That would likely lead to the overturning of the New York law.

To drive the point home, the March For Our Lives brief led with a series of anecdotes of people affected by gun violence.

“The plea that we make in the brief is that the court should not adopt a standard like strict scrutiny, which would make it impossible to justify any regulations here,” Feinberg said. “There’s an urgent need for regulation.”
What’s At Stake In The Guns Case At The Supreme Court?

 

[livingston]

I have not heard this before ...

 

[spat]

adopt a standard like strict scrutiny, which would make it impossible to justify any regulations here,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

What they don't seem to get is that rights trump feelings.

Everything in the bill of rights should have strict scrutiny applied, just because it's the bill of rights.

 

[Jmac00]

To drive the point home, the March For Our Lives brief led with a series of anecdotes of people affected by gun violence.

did any of these anecdotes include people who have used a firearm in self-defense?

 

[Airborneguy]

Great article. Very evenly written, unlike most nowadays.

I didn’t know how many cases are currently pending appeal. That’s a great sign. As Heller guaranteed the right in the home, it’s only natural that licensing systems like NYC’s are ripe for being struck down. Why do we need permission to keep a gun - any gun - inside of our own homes?

Maybe we need a recently moved resident to be arrested for having a firearm he legally acquired in his last state of residence to push the next case forward. It seems pretty cut and dry that if someone acquired their gun legally and has no other reasons for exclusion, that they don’t need permission from NYC or any other municipality to keep that gun in their home.

 

[BDinPutnam]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

What they don't seem to get is that rights trump feelings.

Everything in the bill of rights should have strict scrutiny applied, just because it's the bill of rights.

Also known as "the big list of things you idiots don't get to vote on."

 

[Jmac00]

I have to give credit to George Soros, Mike Bloomberg and the the anti-gun crowd in general.

They have expertly changed the narrative of the Parkland school shooting, and every mass shooting in general. They shifted the narrative from a complete failure Sheriff Scott Israel and his department and the Parkland School District, to EVERYONE blaming the NRA and Law abiding citizens

Now, no one is talking about the failures of the people directly involved with these disaster's, but they are talking about the evil of law abiding citizens.

Law abiding citizens will never win this argument if WE don't shift the narrative BACK to where it belongs, blaming the evil people that perpetrate these crimes. With 7 BILLION people on the planet, there is going to be a few crazy people. There is nothing anyone can do about them, nothing.

What we can do is prepare for the worse, in the unlikely chance that a law abiding person encounters a crazy person.

 

[nortatoga]

“He doesn’t care about what effect any of these laws will have on public safety,” said Allen Rostron, a law professor at the University of Missouri Kansas City and formerly a lawyer for Brady, a gun control advocacy organization.

“[Kavanaugh] says that the right to keep and bear arms should be interpreted and applied based strictly on the text of the Second Amendment, the history of it and tradition,” Rostron said.

According to Rostron, the court could choose to apply a level of review to government regulation that would make any gun control law impossible to defend.

“If they said, ‘We want proof, really compelling proof about what exactly this gun law would do and how it would improve safety,’” Rostron said, “it’s very hard to prove it definitively one way or the other.”

Well Yeah!!!!

 

[Truebeliever]

I can just imagine if the court struck down the Sullivan laws of the “may issue” permit system and made New York a “shall issue” state. Or even made NYC accept outside county carry permits in the city limits.

I think we all know the court will not go “constitutional carry”. Even Heller was a close vote.

 

[BDinPutnam]

I cant begin to tell you how much money the Sullivan Act has saved me over the years.

 

[Phauxtoe]

the Court is supposed to Use "strict scrutiny" in regard to the Second amendment!
Bad lower court judges have been using lesser types to justify letting bad law stand!

Watch some Adam Kraut videos to learn about this stuff...
The Legal Brief - Gun Laws Explained - YouTube

 

[Shadow2]

Well when do they meet on it?

Imagine that the government would have to prove hat they do will actual work AMAZING CONCEPT.

MY Credit Card is standing by

 

[Marine Cpl]

Great article. Very evenly written, unlike most nowadays.

I didn’t know how many cases are currently pending appeal. That’s a great sign. As Heller guaranteed the right in the home, it’s only natural that licensing systems like NYC’s are ripe for being struck down. Why do we need permission to keep a gun - any gun - inside of our own homes?

Maybe we need a recently moved resident to be arrested for having a firearm he legally acquired in his last state of residence to push the next case forward. It seems pretty cut and dry that if someone acquired their gun legally and has no other reasons for exclusion, that they don’t need permission from NYC or any other municipality to keep that gun in their home.

I believe there was a case not too long ago about a Navy Veteran who legally purchased his handgun in Florida and upon discharge, took it to Brooklyn. Someone broke into his home and was leaning over his kid’s bed. He shot him dead.

After it hit the news (I remember seeing it on Hannity. ), all he got charged for was Disorderly Conduct I believe.

With cases like that, they do not like to charge you because a clean cut guy like that could strike down their law.

Edit. Found the article.
Brooklyn Father Shoots Intruder, Faces Jail Time Due To Gun Laws | TacticalCache.com

 

[Grimscale]

attorneys for March For Our Lives filed a brief

Really?
so people totally unrelated to the case at hand can file a brief either in support of, or opposition to, potential rulings by the Court?


Where do I sign up?

 

[Airborneguy]

I believe there was a case not too long ago about a Navy Veteran who legally purchased his handgun in Florida and upon discharge, took it to Brooklyn. Someone broke into his home and was leaning over his kid’s bed. He shot him dead.

After it hit the news (I remember seeing it on Hannity. ), all he got charged for was Disorderly Conduct I believe.

With cases like that, they do not like to charge you because a clean cut guy like that could strike down their law.

Edit. Found the article.
Brooklyn Father Shoots Intruder, Faces Jail Time Due To Gun Laws | TacticalCache.com

That’s the case I always use as an example of NY not being so bad when it comes to justified self-defense. There are states that are much worse. There’s an even better case from Newburgh where the guy was a gang member with a totally illegal gun who ran up behind a guy who was pointing a gun at his brother. He wasn’t charged either because the gun was never found (the shooting was on video though).

 

[Edwardteach72]

That’s the case I always use as an example of NY not being so bad when it comes to justified self-defense. There are states that are much worse. There’s an even better case from Newburgh where the guy was a gang member with a totally illegal gun who ran up behind a guy who was pointing a gun at his brother. He wasn’t charged either because the gun was never found (the shooting was on video though).

I hate when people try to talk about New York being a "duty to retreat" state but never actually read the law on defense and use of force.

Especially when it comes to inside the home, I've read comments of people saying "you are required to escape your home, if you cant you have to lock yourself in a bedroom and demand the intrude leave 3 times before you can do anything and even then you are most likely going to he arrested"

 

[BDinPutnam]

Really?
so people totally unrelated to the case at hand can file a brief either in support of, or opposition to, potential rulings by the Court?


Where do I sign up?

You're entirely free to pay for and file an amicus brief if you want to.

 

[spat]

I hate when people try to talk about New York being a "duty to retreat" state but never actually read the law on defense and use of force.

Especially when it comes to inside the home, I've read comments of people saying "you are required to escape your home, if you cant you have to lock yourself in a bedroom and demand the intrude leave 3 times before you can do anything and even then you are most likely going to he arrested"

There is the law on paper, and there is the law as applied.

In most of upstate self defense is handled reasonably.

There are some jurisdictions though where even all the hoops you listed would not be enough to get the DA and judges not to drag you through "the process".

It's like getting a pistol permit. On paper it's the same requirement throughout the state, in practice it varies widely.

 

[Criticalt]

I live in a county that deals with self defense in or out of the home more like a free state does than most of NYS does.
There are several stories but heres one.
A few years ago 2 guys invaded another guys home looking for drugs and money.
The home the crooks broke into was a known drug dealer. The drug dealer shot both intruders with a 12 gauge shotgun, killing one and injuring the other.
The shooter was not charged or even arrested for shooting the intruders.
The shooter had been arrested several times for small scale misdemeanor drug sales but had never had a felony conviction.

 

[Airborneguy]

There is the law on paper, and there is the law as applied.

In most of upstate self defense is handled reasonably.

There are some jurisdictions though where even all the hoops you listed would not be enough to get the DA and judges not to drag you through "the process".

It's like getting a pistol permit. On paper it's the same requirement throughout the state, in practice it varies widely.

Examples?

I can’t recall a truly horrendous case other than Richard Digugliemo who was railroaded by Jeanine Pirro about 20 years ago.

 

[Airborneguy]

I live in a county that deals with self defense in or out of the home more like a free state does than most of NYS does.
There are several stories but heres one.
A few years ago 2 guys invaded another guys home looking for drugs and money.
The home the crooks broke into was a known drug dealer. The drug dealer shot both intruders with a 12 gauge shotgun, killing one and injuring the other.
The shooter was not charged or even arrested for shooting the intruders.
The shooter had been arrested several times for small scale misdemeanor drug sales but had never had a felony conviction.

Nearly the exact same story just happened a few months ago in my precinct. The guy ended up with a ticket for the unregistered shotgun, that’s it. I posted about it here.

We always hear statements about horrible self-defense cases, but never examples. Every example I can think of in NY ended exactly how we would want them to.

 

[Blimey]

There is the law on paper, and there is the law as applied.

In most of upstate self defense is handled reasonably.

There are some jurisdictions though where even all the hoops you listed would not be enough to get the DA and judges not to drag you through "the process".

It's like getting a pistol permit. On paper it's the same requirement throughout the state, in practice it varies widely.

Best course of action is to always retreat, even in your home. If you can, and it's just you, etc. Potentially save yourself a lot of money and time in court depending on what happens, as you said.

Still, the law is clear. I doubt most people would get dragged through it unless there is some question about events; e.g. was it really self defense or were you taking part in some drug deal, etc.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Best course of action is to always retreat, even in your home. If you can, and it's just you, etc. Potentially save yourself a lot of money and time in court depending on what happens, as you said.

Still, the law is clear. I doubt most people would get dragged through it unless there is some question about events; e.g. was it really self defense or were you taking part in some drug deal, etc.

Why is it the best course of action to retreat.. please explain, have you read the use of force law for new york.

We had an incident in my area were some guy decided to break into another guys home middle of the day, the home owner and son were there, the son ran and grabbed a shot gun and came back and shot the intruder while the father was wrestling with him..

Guess what they were charged with...... nothing..

So please explain "Best course of action is to always retreat, even in your home"

 

[GoodGuywitha9mm]

A little off-topic, but... what about not being able to carry in NYC but you can legally carry throughout all of upstate? WHY is it considered such a threat to the safety of the public there, but not say in Buffalo, downtown Albany, Schenectady, Troy or any of those other thought to be crime-ridden areas???
That law/rule has kept people like me from frequenting the "Big Apple" for years. I won't spend a dime there as long as I cannot carry there!
How is THAT never has been an issue???

 

[GoodGuywitha9mm]

Why is it the best course of action to retreat.. please explain, have you read the use of force law for new york.

We had an incident in my area were some guy decided to break into another guys home middle of the day, the home owner and son were there, the son ran and grabbed a shot gun and came back and shot the intruder while the father was wrestling with him..

Guess what they were charged with...... nothing..

So please explain "Best course of action is to always retreat, even in your home"

Inside your home is to be considered "retreating"; you re not required to leave it. In the case you mention, the homeowner (Dad) was not able to retreat further into the home (like say to the bedroom) because he was engaged in a fight with the intruder. The son was well within his right to use physical deadly force as he was in fear for another's (Dad) life. IF they both could have, retreating to the bedroom would have been sufficient and at that point if the intruder was still presenting a physical deadly threat, you have met the criteria as far as retreating and could now (if still necessary) use deadly force to protect your life given no other options.

 

[Gonzobird]

I cant begin to tell you how much money the Sullivan Act has saved me over the years.

That wins for begin the most funny thing i read all day.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Inside your home is to be considered "retreating"; you re not required to leave it. In the case you mention, the homeowner (Dad) was not able to retreat further into the home (like say to the bedroom) because he was engaged in a fight with the intruder. The son was well within his right to use physical deadly force as he was in fear for another's (Dad) life. IF they both could have, retreating to the bedroom would have been sufficient and at that point if the intruder was still presenting a physical deadly threat, you have met the criteria as far as retreating and could now (if still necessary) use deadly force to protect your life given no other options.

Show me in the penal code where the home owner is required to retreat

 

[Gonzobird]

Here you go. Penal law 315.15. If it is in your house and you didn't start the aggression you don't have to retreat:

Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person

 

[Edwardteach72]

Here you go. Penal law 315.15. If it is in your house and you didn't start the aggression you don't have to retreat:

Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person

I know. I was hoping the people who keep trying to say the homeowner still has a to retreat to show me what tells them this

 

[Blimey]

Why is it the best course of action to retreat.. please explain, have you read the use of force law for new york.

We had an incident in my area were some guy decided to break into another guys home middle of the day, the home owner and son were there, the son ran and grabbed a shot gun and came back and shot the intruder while the father was wrestling with him..

Guess what they were charged with...... nothing..

So please explain "Best course of action is to always retreat, even in your home"

"If you can, and it's just you, etc." i.e. no threat to you. Just because you can legally justify something doesn't mean you should, from a personal convenience perspective.

It's preferable to call the cops saying somebody is in your house because you ran off property--can you come take care of it instead of calling them and saying "hey somebody is dead in my family room and I've put bullets through my now blood-sprayed walls. I'm pretty darn sure it's self defense and I hope you all agree."

It's legal in NY i think to shoot somebody if they break into your garage and are rifling through your car. But it's smart to tell them you're armed and calling the cops and lock the door to the house and only shoot if they attempt to break in further.