spat
.700 Nitro Express
The law is written differently for rifles and pistols than it is for shotguns.
There is no exception for rifles or pistols to not be AWs just because full sized magazines don't exist.
There is for shotguns.
What’s the Rules on Shotguns?
- Thread starter DrBleachCocktail
- Start date
There is no exception for rifles or pistols to not be AWs just because full sized magazines don't exist.
There is for shotguns.
Ok can you point me to the specific legal citation because I'm just not getting it.
Also, while you're at it can you cite specific legal reference why collapsible stock is ok with 5 rounds or less in fixed mag but not detachable mag. Thanks.
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
See the difference.
Your featureless AR isn't an AW to begin with, so it doesn't need the "5 round" exemption. Your shotgun is as soon as it has a detachable mag.
A fixed mag is whatever size it is, so you can have a 5 round fixed mag and it doesn't matter than they sell 7 round versions in PA.
A detachable magazine isn't just the magazine in the rifle, it includes all the magazines that could be attached.
So, if you have a detachable mag, and *can't* get a 5+ rounder, then you could have your adjustable stock. Right up until bubba-arms in Alabama decides to make the +1 extension for it.
Sorry no not seeing it. Section (g) explicitly states the term assault weapon does not include a semi auto shotgun with capacity of no more than 5 rounds in Fixed or Detachible mag.
I can have a Benelli M4 with collapsible stock if it has a tube capacity of 5 or less. I cant have it if I choose to put a 7 round tube on it which is widely available and a common accessory in most of the free United States. The exclusion in section (g) says no more than 5 rounds in Fixed or Detachible mag. That language is explicit. Fixed OR Detachible. So if collapsible stock is legal in fixed tube of 5 rounds or less it follows it would be legal in Detachible mag of five rounds or less. That's what law says fixed OR detachable mag. Getting late bro more tomorrow.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Right, but the fixed mag is tied to the gun, a detachable magazine by definition isn't.
The prosecutor can take your gun and insert their magazine and say "looks like your gun can take a 10 rounder"
Additionally, I was wrong before, there *is* an exception for rifles with 5 round detachable magazines. But nobody says you can have full featured ARs as long as you only possess small mags.
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
This deserves a hearty FUAC!
Robin
Robin
JackNeat
.45 acp
Rather than start a new discussion I will chime in on this thread and ask my Semi-Auto shotgun specific question.
How is the magazine size determined under the UNsafe act specifically as it applies to SEMI-AUTO shotguns. The Law says anything over 7 and it’s an AW. Is that determined by a default shell length or purely by how many shells you stuff into the mag?
I am looking at the Remington Versa Max Tactical/Competition and wondering if it’s legal in NYS. It is listed as an 8+1 with 2-3/4in and 7+1 with 3in shells.
( I might have confused something I read on the shell size and count of shells in the mag.. I thought I remembered reading the shell count was different depending on the size. However on Remington’s website they only show the Competition as 8+1. The Tactical is 6+1)
How is the magazine size determined under the UNsafe act specifically as it applies to SEMI-AUTO shotguns. The Law says anything over 7 and it’s an AW. Is that determined by a default shell length or purely by how many shells you stuff into the mag?
I am looking at the Remington Versa Max Tactical/Competition and wondering if it’s legal in NYS. It is listed as an 8+1 with 2-3/4in and 7+1 with 3in shells.
( I might have confused something I read on the shell size and count of shells in the mag.. I thought I remembered reading the shell count was different depending on the size. However on Remington’s website they only show the Competition as 8+1. The Tactical is 6+1)
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If an FFL transfers it to you you are good. They are the pro's. Keep your paperwork.
If I recall correctly there is exception for semi auto shotgun that allows "evil features" if tube mag cannot accept more than 5 rounds. No evil features if mag accepts more than 5 rounds but not more than 7 rounds. So as long as there are no "evil features" (such as collapsible stock) I'd say you were good to go with 7 3" shells but no good with 8 2-3/4" shells as long as shotgun has no other listed features. Dont have anything but 3" shells when you are using it. Of course, I'm not attorney so take this for what it's worth. Good luck.
And dont mod it.
Elwood
.223 Rem
and here we are 8 years later still debating grey areas and legalities.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You aren’t serious are you?
You’re right. The FFL’s sell anything and everything to anyone. I got a few grenades and a sawed off shotgun from mine the other day. I also tried to get a presser cooker bomb but they were all out.
They have to know all of the laws and abide by them. If they sell you something rest assured it is legal. The ultimate risk is on them.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Anybody can become an FFL. You can too. That doesn’t mean that you know the laws. FFL’s here refused to sell me a Keltec KSG and an SKS because they were assault weapons according to them. I had to drive to another county to make the transfer. When I bought my first AR, the FFL told me that you cannot use preban 30 rd magazines in a post ban gun.
FFL’s here sold AR’s with standard bullet buttons where the buyers had to return to make the magazine fixed after the police got involved. They have sold plenty of things that were unlawful. We had one FFL here on this forum that used to use loctite to affix a muzzle device on a 14.5 inch barrel in contrast to federal law.
You are wrong.
Not worried about it. Your examples are mostly the other way being extra cautious. Either way how would you know? The FFL sold it to you and the burden is on them as the professional dealer. You followed the lawful process and were transferred the weapon lawfully. Notice in your other example the people with the bullet buttons weren’t arrested. Why not? Because they followed the lawful process and were misled by the FFL or maybe guidance changed from the time of sale. They were covered. Nobody would touch that case. Keep your paperwork showing the lawful sale and processes were followed.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What you just wrote doesn’t prove that FFL’s are pros. And not being arrested has nothing to do with anything. The police can provide the buyer a courtesy or they could choose not to. If you took your bullet buttoned AR to open carry while fishing, it probably wouldn’t go that way.
I wouldn’t worry about it. They are the ones with a lot more to lose. Show your paperwork and a judge or DA would throw it out. If they misled you as you were there legally following the proper process than so be it. It’s extremely unlikely. Proceed as usual.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Ok man. Sure.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Detachable mag is automatically a no go AFAIK.
BDinPutnam
.475 A&M Magnum
I suppose top loading 12 gauge wouldn't be the worst thing in the world (assuming a fixed mag).
I'm not sure why you'd want to.
Elwood
.223 Rem
I'll chime in on the original discussion. This is where clarity in written law is important. Rochester, as many of you know, has a five-round magazine limit for semiauto centerfire rifles. The Assault Weapon language says:
In the case of a rifle, a fixed or detachable ammunition feeding device which is attached to or utilized with or capable of being attached to or utilized with such rifle and which has a capacity of more than five cartridges.
If they left it at that, people could have a similar debate about ARs that we are having here. Since there exist 10/20/30/50/60/100/etc round magazine that it is technically capable of being used with, wouldn't that make it an AW? No, because it is preceded (and clarified) by:
For the purposes of this section, a weapon is capable of being loaded if it is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses:
So, as long as I don't possess a 10/20/30/... round magazine that can fit in my AR/SCR/etc, they are not AWs (assuming they meet the other restrictions.) However, if I own one of those mags, even if I never use them together, then they are automatically AWs.
As the state law is written, a shotgun - even a semiauto one - is not an AW if it cannot hold more than 5 rounds in a fixed or detachable magazine. However, does that simply mean that no >5 round mags exist anywhere, or do you have to actually possess one? As usual, NYS law is ambiguous.
As an aside, someone mentioned the 5-round limit AW exception for rifles, too. Do I think that you could have a full-featured AR just by owning only 5-round magazines? Probably not, again because the ambiguity. However, at one point, I drew up a lower that had an extension on the mag tube that included a bottom plate, which allowed 5-round magazines, and nothing larger, to be inserted from the side, and then slid up into the original magwell. In other words, it would not be physically capable of taking more than 5-round magazines. That, I do think could allow you to have full features on an AR in NY. No doubt. Of course, it wouldn't keep you from being arrested by a cop who is ignorant of the exception, but it would clearly and unequivocally satisfy the exception, and thus be legal, which should get the charges dismissed by the DA or in court.
In the case of a rifle, a fixed or detachable ammunition feeding device which is attached to or utilized with or capable of being attached to or utilized with such rifle and which has a capacity of more than five cartridges.
If they left it at that, people could have a similar debate about ARs that we are having here. Since there exist 10/20/30/50/60/100/etc round magazine that it is technically capable of being used with, wouldn't that make it an AW? No, because it is preceded (and clarified) by:
For the purposes of this section, a weapon is capable of being loaded if it is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses:
So, as long as I don't possess a 10/20/30/... round magazine that can fit in my AR/SCR/etc, they are not AWs (assuming they meet the other restrictions.) However, if I own one of those mags, even if I never use them together, then they are automatically AWs.
As the state law is written, a shotgun - even a semiauto one - is not an AW if it cannot hold more than 5 rounds in a fixed or detachable magazine. However, does that simply mean that no >5 round mags exist anywhere, or do you have to actually possess one? As usual, NYS law is ambiguous.
As an aside, someone mentioned the 5-round limit AW exception for rifles, too. Do I think that you could have a full-featured AR just by owning only 5-round magazines? Probably not, again because the ambiguity. However, at one point, I drew up a lower that had an extension on the mag tube that included a bottom plate, which allowed 5-round magazines, and nothing larger, to be inserted from the side, and then slid up into the original magwell. In other words, it would not be physically capable of taking more than 5-round magazines. That, I do think could allow you to have full features on an AR in NY. No doubt. Of course, it wouldn't keep you from being arrested by a cop who is ignorant of the exception, but it would clearly and unequivocally satisfy the exception, and thus be legal, which should get the charges dismissed by the DA or in court.