What's next? Where do we go from here?

[Robin]

Louie Gohmert is not a nutjob. Maybe there is something wrong with you.
Robin

 

[eris]

Question. If I went over to the forum eris is from (don't know what that is) and tried to have a discussion would it be as civil as in this thread? I'm asking, even if I communicated as civily as eris is now and not going over there purposefully trolling. Who is the local opposition there? In other words who is the eris of that forum that is allowed to speak freely? Or would I be met with a pile on of name calling and demanding that I change my views. Would I get banned just for having a differing view? Within these questions I think you would find the differences between liberals and conservatives.

If this thread existed on the LGC forum? Well, I'm a moderator there now, so I can speak with a bit of authority on that. Podmonkey would have been banned almost immediately, because his posts call for violence and that's a violation of the LGC forum rules. Steal2B *might* have been banned, because his post could also been seen as promoting violence, though that one would probably depend on how cranky the mod was feeling that day.

The rest of the posts? Well, they certainly don't violate the forum rules, and if you swap the political labels I've seen pretty much these same posts on the LGC forum. You guys would certainly get people angry, but as a moderator, I at least would not see any reason to intervene. Some of the other moderators over there are more trigger happy, though, and they might ban someone if they thought that person was just insulting liberals without good cause.

For example, going over there and saying that liberals are communists won't fly. That will be seen as just trolling and trying to get a rise out of people, because most liberals are quite simply not communists. We do have one forum member who I know identifies as a died in the wool "workers control the means of production" socialist, but most of us support regulated capitalism. Sure we want more regulations than exist in the US today, but not really that much more, and some of what we want is what we used to have, like some OSHA rules, or just variants on what already exists, like higher gas mileage rules.

 

[Modean]

This is why antifa exists. Because conservative extremists have been calling for and committing violence and people on the far left decided to respond to it.

- Robert Bowers killed 11 people in a synagogue.
- Dylan Roof killed nine people in a church.
- Wade Page killed 6 people in a Sikh temple.
- James Fields plowed his car into a crowd and killed Heather Heyer.
- James von Brunn killed a guard at the Holocaust museum.
- Robert Dear killed 3 people at a Planned Parenthood clinic.
- Jeremy Christian killed 2 people on a train in Oregon.

I could go on.

Please, don't encourage more violence. It does no one any good. It won't make things better.

You have your time line backwards. Most of the events you cite happened after Antifa violence became a thing.

 

[eris]

You have your time line backwards. Most of the events you cite happened after Antifa violence became a thing.

I just picked the most recent events, and if you'll notice antifa was not the target of any of those attacks.

 

[Modean]

By and large, most of us on the right just want to be left alone to live our lives as we wish, with our Constitutional rights intact. We aren’t looking to “fundamentally change” anything. That doesn’t seem to be the case with the left.

 

[eris]

By and large, most of us on the right just want to be left alone to live our lives as we wish, with our Constitutional rights intact. We aren’t looking to “fundamentally change” anything. That doesn’t seem to be the case with the left.

I do want to fundamentally change the US. In particular, I'd like to have the same rights that everyone else has, which efinitely wasn't the case for most of my life and there are still areas where I don't have the same rights as everyone else.

- Up until the early 80's gay people were routinely attacked, harassed and arrested by the cops.
- Until 2003 it was illegal for me to have sex.
- Until 2015 it was illegal for me to get married
- Right now people are trying to make it illegal for me to use a public restroom.
- It is still legal to fire me or evict me from a rental property just because I'm a lesbian. (Yes, this does happen, too: Hateful landlord caught on video kicking out a tenant because he’s gay)
- Right now the courts are still undecided about whether or not store owners can refuse to serve me.

I'd be ecstatic if I could just be left alone to live my life the way I wish, but groups like Focus on the Family won't let me. They keep insisting that their rights include a right to deny me my rights, and so I have to keep fighting and keep pushing for that "fundamental change" in society that is necessary to ensure that *all* people can enjoy their rights, not just traditionally dominant groups.

 

[prambo]

 

[eris]

View attachment 37556

I assure you I'm not here to troll. Yes, I'm a liberal as the others already know. I like to think of myself as being here on a foreign exchange program.

 

[Modean]

I do want to fundamentally change the US. In particular, I'd like to have the same rights that everyone else has, which efinitely wasn't the case for most of my life and there are still areas where I don't have the same rights as everyone else.

- Up until the early 80's gay people were routinely attacked, harassed and arrested by the cops.
- Until 2003 it was illegal for me to have sex.
- Until 2015 it was illegal for me to get married
- Right now people are trying to make it illegal for me to use a public restroom.
- It is still legal to fire me or evict me from a rental property just because I'm a lesbian. (Yes, this does happen, too: Hateful landlord caught on video kicking out a tenant because he’s gay)
- Right now the courts are still undecided about whether or not store owners can refuse to serve me.

I'd be ecstatic if I could just be left alone to live my life the way I wish, but groups like Focus on the Family won't let me. They keep insisting that their rights include a right to deny me my rights, and so I have to keep fighting and keep pushing for that "fundamental change" in society that is necessary to ensure that *all* people can enjoy their rights, not just traditionally dominant groups.

I believe your legal rights have been established. Social acceptance by all is something no law can ever grant you.

 

[eris]

I believe your legal rights have been established. Social acceptance by all is something no law can ever grant you.

You believe my rights have been established, but I disagree. This is a point of contention between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives seem to take a much more limited view of what constitutes "rights".

 

[FrankenCub]

I assure you I'm not here to troll. Yes, I'm a liberal as the others already know. I like to think of myself as being here on a foreign exchange program.

You want to be left alone to live your life as you see fit, you want to be able to own firearms, you're closer to the Conservative line than you admit. The mainstream Liberals don't want people to own firearms, want to intrude into people's lives for topics other than sexual preference.
You're well liked here, Conservatives aren't well liked by mainstream Liberals. Granted, I don't like most Liberals, but that's not my doing. I'm polite to those I run into around here, don't mock what I see as moronic, don't run my mouth when I see these pussy hat feminists, and I fully support their Right to speak as they wish even if I did the same it would be construed as hate speech. Yet if I'm wearing my NY Militia colors, wearing an NRA hat, or even just driving my CUCV, I hear all sorts of stupid ass comments and dirty looks. Hypocricy at it's finest from the left, kinda amusing.

 

[FrankenCub]

You believe my rights have been established, but I disagree. This is a point of contention between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives seem to take a much more limited view of what constitutes "rights".

That would be the influence of religion unfortunately. Those Rights of yours have changed due to religion easing up on what they believe is acceptable. AFAIC religion should be banned outside the home. Religion has been at the root of more evil than anything else.

 

[Acer-m14]

ok whats my punishment .. i had a brain fart .. should have see this from the title LOL ..

where to we go from here ..

 

[gun_slinger_boy]

They keep insisting that their rights include a right to deny me my rights, and so I have to keep fighting and keep pushing for that "fundamental change" in society that is necessary to ensure that *all* people can enjoy their rights, not just traditionally dominant groups.

Interesting. So would you consider punishment of say a business owner for denying someone patronage to their business for any reason they deem fit denying them of their (the business owner's) rights? What are your thoughts on punishment for an individual who addresses someone as they see fit opposed to how the other person would like to be addressed? Is that a right denied?

 

[eris]

You want to be left alone to live your life as you see fit, you want to be able to own firearms, you're closer to the Conservative line than you admit. The mainstream Liberals don't want people to own firearms, want to intrude into people's lives for topics other than sexual preference.

I call myself "liberal" by default, because it's the most well understood term. I would prefer to call myself something like a "social libertarian". I don't agree with the laissez-faire economics espoused by the Libertarian party, but I do hold individual liberty to be a guiding principle.

Yet if I'm wearing my NY Militia colors, wearing an NRA hat, or even just driving my CUCV, I hear all sorts of stupid ass comments and dirty looks. Hypocricy at it's finest from the left, kinda amusing.

Yes wearing that stuff is going to attract negative attention, much like wearing rainbow flags will in some neighborhoods. It's sad, and it's because people fear that which they don't understand, and these days liberals and conservatives seem to not even want to understand each other.

 

[eris]

Interesting. So would you consider punishment of say a business owner for denying someone patronage to their business for any reason they deem fit denying them of their (the business owner's) rights? What are your thoughts on punishment for an individual who addresses someone as they see fit opposed to how the other person would like to be addressed? Is that a right denied?

Let's stick to the issue of serving gay people for sake of an example. Yes, there should be punishment for business owners who refuse to serve gay people, and it should be the exact same punishment for refusing to serve black people, or refusing to serve Jews, etc. Those punishments are already in place in our laws and no one seems to question them. Discrimination against gays falls in the exact same category.

Failing to address some properly? As in someone insisting on calling a trans-woman "he"? That's just rude, so no particular punishment, at least not any more than calling a black person the n word. It might in some circumstances be considered "fighting words", if it's part of a long tirade or some other actions it might be simple assault, but in general it should probably just be ignored.

I very much think that discrimination against LGBT people should be treated exactly the way we treat discrimination against someone because of their race or religion. The exact details of what happens are up to lawmakers.

 

[FrankenCub]

I call myself "liberal" by default, because it's the most well understood term. I would prefer to call myself something like a "social libertarian". I don't agree with the laissez-faire economics espoused by the Libertarian party, but I do hold individual liberty to be a guiding principle.

I would argue you should identify as the "social libertarian" seems that's what you prefer. I won't identify as a Republican just because it's more well known in society, the modern Republicans don't correctly fit my beliefs.

Yes wearing that stuff is going to attract negative attention, much like wearing rainbow flags will in some neighborhoods. It's sad, and it's because people fear that which they don't understand, and these days liberals and conservatives seem to not even want to understand each other.

Well you see, right there lies the problem. Everyone in my circle are Conservatives and present themselves as I do. If we acted as the Liberals around here do, we'd be demonized instantly, even by one of our own. Meanwhile the Liberals are applauded for such actions, especially in the schools. Rainbow flags all over and no one complains, the US flag or Gasden flags and all hell breaks loose.
The Conservatives in this area couldn't care less how someone appears or what flag they fly. Well, as long as it's not an ISIS flag lol.

 

[Acer-m14]

how about the party called "Leave me the fk alone" do not take my $$$ i work for .. for BS i do not like .. follow the bill of rights and the Constitution

laissez-faire economics espoused

and wtf is that ,,, a new term just made up like of 5 mill sex identities .

and do you know in Business law .. if your the business owner and has a customer that may be a alien .. i need you your green card .. don't have .. no fkin sale .. its a law .. hardly inforced .. should be ..

Let's stick to the issue of serving gay people for sake of an example. Yes, there should be punishment for business owners who refuse to serve gay people, and it should be the exact same punishment for refusing to server black people, or refusing to serve Jews, etc

serve them what .. ?? this is my menu .. this is the scope of my business .. sorry its not there .,. find another store ..

gay , lez , dyke or black , yellow , green .. what ever .. bring you car or pick up to where i work .. , i don't work on them .. call AAA .. i work on big
18 wheeler semi trucks .. we will not order in parts for personal cars and pickups .. its not our business .. ..

ohhh the Cake baker .. .. why should he / she order in special cake toppings if that is not there scope of biz . ? .. ie parts for your personal car / pickup

.. i'm going to McDonald's tomorrow .. I'll order a AR15 .. .. your Racist ect .. lawsuit .. u have to serve me .. ..

 

[tirwin1]

Let's stick to the issue of serving gay people for sake of an example. Yes, there should be punishment for business owners who refuse to serve gay people, and it should be the exact same punishment for refusing to serve black people, or refusing to serve Jews, etc. Those punishments are already in place in our laws and no one seems to question them. Discrimination against gays falls in the exact same category.

Failing to address some properly? As in someone insisting on calling a trans-woman "he"? That's just rude, so no particular punishment, at least not any more than calling a black person the n word. It might in some circumstances be considered "fighting words", if it's part of a long tirade or some other actions it might be simple assault, but in general it should probably just be ignored.

I very much think that discrimination against LGBT people should be treated exactly the way we treat discrimination against someone because of their race or religion. The exact details of what happens are up to lawmakers.

I challenge you to find examples of people who have been refused service because they are gay, or black or jewish. You can't find any. Even the baker in colorado did not refuse to sell people anything because they were gay. He simply refused to go out of his way to make a cake celebrating the gay lifestyle, which he disagrees with. That is entirely different than refusing to "serve" someone who is gay. In all honesty if an LGBT person walked into a store it is difficult to determine they are LGBT unless the individual in question brings attention to themselves. So this is really a straw man argument.

As for calling a trans-woman "he" - get over yourself sunshine. YOU may think its the same as the "n" word but that doesn't mean the rest of the world does. So your lame attempt to equate that to "fighting words" is just that - a lame attempt at equivalence. At least skin color is an obvious difference. For most transexuals the difference is not obvious and only the insistence of those in question makes it an issue. We don't care what you look like. We don't care what you do in the privacy of your own home. But don't tell us we have to address you or treat you in certain ways because YOU think we should. Sorry, that's just not going to happen.

 

[eris]

and wtf is that ,,, a new term just made up like of 5 mill sex identities .

Laissez-faire - Wikipedia

It's a pretty old and common term.

I challenge you to find examples of people who have been refused service because they are gay, or black or jewish.

Gay man evicted from apartment for being gay: Hateful landlord caught on video kicking out a tenant because he’s gay

A reminder of what balck people had to put up with before the courts ruled discrimination was illegal.

 

[Acer-m14]

Laissez-faire - Wikipedia

It's a pretty old and common term.





Gay man evicted from apartment for being gay: Hateful landlord caught on video kicking out a tenant because he’s gay

A reminder of what balck people had to put up with before the courts ruled discrimination was illegal.

Legal Gun-Owning Harvard Graduate Evicted... Over Legally Owned Guns?!

 

[MadScientist]

I call myself "liberal" by default, because it's the most well understood term. I would prefer to call myself something like a "social libertarian". I don't agree with the laissez-faire economics espoused by the Libertarian party, but I do hold individual liberty to be a guiding principle.

So here’s what I don’t get, you say you stand for individual liberty, but above you say you don’t have the same rights as everybody else. You cited being kicked out of your apartment as an example. Is it not an infringement on the landlord to be forced to provide a service to somebody they don’t want?
I also think you’re being a bit hyperbolic. You have all the same rights, you have free speech, ect. Marriage is not a right. Living in an apartment of your choice is not a right. Being socially accepted is not a right. Forcing people to like you and agree with your lifestyle, choices, ect is an infringement on others liberties.
This is my biggest issue with liberals. You guys think everything is a right. Healthcare is a right, illegal migration and asylum is a right, repeat ad nauseum. For the record I am one of those people an above poster mentioned that used to be a progressive liberal but soured on the worldview. My problem with the left is they have a certain view of how the world should look and believe in imposing it on others through the government, which translates to force and violence to ensure compliance. I have no problem with you attempting for advocate, for say trans issues to create normalization. I have a problem with those issues being imposed through force.

 

[GOPerfect]

So here’s what I don’t get, you say you stand for individual liberty, but above you say you don’t have the same rights as everybody else. You cited being kicked out of your apartment as an example. Is it not an infringement on the landlord to be forced to provide a service to somebody they don’t want?
I also think you’re being a bit hyperbolic. You have all the same rights, you have free speech, ect. Marriage is not a right. Living in an apartment of your choice is not a right. Being socially accepted is not a right. Forcing people to like you and agree with your lifestyle, choices, ect is an infringement on others liberties.
This is my biggest issue with liberals. You guys think everything is a right. Healthcare is a right, illegal migration and asylum is a right, repeat ad nauseum. For the record I am one of those people an above poster mentioned that used to be a progressive liberal but soured on the worldview. My problem with the left is they have a certain view of how the world should look and believe in imposing it on others through the government, which translates to force and violence to ensure compliance. I have no problem with you attempting for advocate, for say trans issues to create normalization. I have a problem with those issues being imposed through force.

Wow, nice! Perfect and truth filled statement.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Just came back this thread. Need to catch up. Fascinating discussion. Someone didn't know what Laissez-faire was? SMH.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Ok.

@eris - thanks for speaking your mind. Nice to have some different opinions here. You and I have a lot in common when it comes to personal liberty. I think its nobody's business what anyone else does. However, i believe that government only gets in the way. These are natural rights. Government has no business legislating any of this. There are people in this world full of hate. Laws will never change that. Whether its ethnicity, sexual orientation, political beliefs, etc. Laws related to that dont help.

Thanks to everyone else for keeping this civil. Proud of y'all.

I agree with some of you about the hateful rhetoric on both sides. I do believe that we are too far gone for this to be patched up peacefully. What I dont agree with is the stats being flung around. Theres no official score and theres assholes on both sides.

Theres too much government right now. Period. Anyone asking for more laws should ask for 5 others to be removed for each new law. We are broke. Financially and morally. peaceful talks, violent protests and voting will not solve any of this mess.

 

[Curmudgeon]

One other thought, and something I think everyone needs to consider. Big Gubbamint, deep state, whatever want this division. The more energy we spend fighting each other, the less energy directed at them and the more we keep voting and participating in a corrupt, broken procesd.

I think once we all wake up to that, the sooner our anger gets redirected.

 

[E the massive]

One other thought, and something I think everyone needs to consider. Big Gubbamint, deep state, whatever want this division. The more energy we spend fighting each other, the less energy directed at them and the more we keep voting and participating in a corrupt, broken procesd.

I think once we all wake up to that, the sooner our anger gets redirected.

That is what the top wants and needs. Useful idiots on both sides.

 

[Drinkthekoolaid]

That is what the top wants and needs. Useful idiots on both sides.

If I had my way all gun lovers, freedom lovers, And patriots, would put our differences aside, and realize we have a common enemy and unite together. We are deliberately being set up to fight with each other in a divide and conquer.


I don't realistically see that happening but it sure would be nice.

 

[Modean]

You believe my rights have been established, but I disagree. This is a point of contention between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives seem to take a much more limited view of what constitutes "rights".

As I said earlier, social acceptance is not a right. It can’t be legislated or imposed. What goes on in people heads remains the one last true freedom.

 

[E the massive]

If I had my way all gun lovers, freedom lovers, And patriots, would put our differences aside, and realize we have a common enemy and unite together. We are deliberately being set up to fight with each other in a divide and conquer.


I don't realistically see that happening but it sure would be nice.

Same here. Thing is most people let their "feels" confuse them. What works for me is to severely limit my area of give a fuck, identify the marketing and salesmanship (which is everywhere) and generally calm the fuck down.