who invented the 300 blackout....and why???

[meketrefe]

dsd,

Again the loads are true and tested so our opinions do not matter that much.

Here are the spreads ....

Range (Yds) 0 100 200 300
Speed (fps) 2638 2441 2252 2070
Energy (ft.lb) 1236 1058 901 761
Drop (in) 0.00 2.63 11.11 26.45
Path (in) -1.75 0.00 -4.10 -15.07
Elevn(MOA) 0.00 1.95 4.78
Windage(MOA) 0.75 1.57 2.46
Elevn(MIL) 0.00 0.57 1.39
Windage(MIL) 0.22 0.46 0.71
Time(Sec) 0.00 0.12 0.25 0.39

If we put them in Hornady's calculator:

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.453 Velocity (ft/s) 2638 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 300 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 223R 80gr double tap 16" DPMS carbine
RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2638 1236 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2445 1062 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 2260 907 -4.3 2.1 0.6 0 0 0
300 2083 771 -15.5 4.9 1.4 0 0 0


In terms of the accuracy I am not surprised.

I got the whisper years ahead of the blackout rebrand and corresponding internet marketing campaign so I had a chance to test many bullets.
the problem is that with the huge freebore necessary for the longest subsonic bullets there is too much jump for the bullets plus depending on the actual diameter that can vary +/-1 thou, bearing surface and other factors it is not easy to get accurate loads. It is not a forgiving cartrige
to reload like the 223R, AI, 6x45 and others. But there are formulas that can be considered accurate enough specially with the lighter bullets.

But this was something that many people have struggled with. Savage who are known for their accuracy in factory barrels decided to suspend
the blackout from production. Only later they have resumed production due to people's requests but this is what they released at the time....

300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

 

[dsdmmat]

This is the discrepency that I am referring to. There is no way for both the 100 yard figure and that one outlined in read to be correct. If we put in the number highlighted in red in as the muzzle velocity you get a different set of numbers leading me to believe the chart that was posted is for the 22 inch barreled 700 not the 16 inch barreled M4. Maybe I am not seeing something correctly so please enlighten me if I am doing something wrong.
Chart posted on the web site.
Match Grade loading for your .223! This loading really delivers tight groups. A must for any distance shooting. A 1-7" twist highly recommended.
200yd. Zero
100yds - 1.7" high 2638fps / 1236ft/lbs
200yds - zero 2460fps / 1075ft/lbs
300yds - 7.5" low 2289fps / 930ft/lbs
400yds - 21.7" low 2125fps / 802ft/lbs
500yds - 43.5" low 1967fps / 688ft/lbs

Caliber : .223 Remington (5.56)

Bullet : 80gr. Nosler Custom Competition Hollow Point Boat Tail

Ballistics : 2825fps - 1418 ft./lbs. - 22.0" bbl. Remington 700
20" - 2750fps
DPMS M-4 Carbine 16.0" - 2625fps

Box of 50rds.

Numbers using 2625 for the muzzle.
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.453 Velocity (ft/s) 2625 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2625 1224 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2432 1051 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 2248 898 -4.4 2.1 0.6 0 0 0
300 2072 763 -15.7 5 1.5 0 0 0
400 1904 644 -35.1 8.4 2.4 0 0 0
500 1745 541 -64.2 12.2
This would put the energy at 100 yards close but still less than the 300 110 GMX Hornady load. Not that anything hit with it would be able to feel 9 foot pounds difference.

If you put on the velocity of 2825 by the 22 inch barrel Remington 700
You get almost exactly the numbers published by the site.

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.453 Velocity (ft/s) 2825 Weight (grains) 80
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 0 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results
RANGE (YARDS) VELOCITY (FPS) ENERGY (FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY (IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT (IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2825 1418 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2624 1223 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 2432 1050 -3.6 1.7 0.5 0 0 0
300 2247 897 -13 4.1 1.2 0 0 0
400 2071 762 -29.4 7 2 0 0 0
500 1903


If I am reading the numbers correctly the chart on the site is referring to the rounds fired out of the 22 inch Remington 700. It is confusing at best, misleading at worst.

 

[dsdmmat]

dsd,
.....edited for brevity......

In terms of the accuracy I am not surprised.

I got the whisper years ahead of the blackout rebrand and corresponding internet marketing campaign so I had a chance to test many bullets.
the problem is that with the huge freebore necessary for the longest subsonic bullets there is too much jump for the bullets plus depending on the actual diameter that can vary +/-1 thou, bearing surface and other factors it is not easy to get accurate loads. It is not a forgiving cartrige
to reload like the 223R, AI, 6x45 and others. But there are formulas that can be considered accurate enough specially with the lighter bullets.

But this was something that many people have struggled with. Savage who are known for their accuracy in factory barrels decided to suspend the blackout from production. Only later they have resumed production due to people's requests but this is what they released at the time....

That a makes perfect sense. I forgot about the throat needing to be so long for the heavy bullets because, I only load supersonic rounds due to the lovely laws in the PRNY.

 

[meketrefe]

Try lots of bullets and then buy bulk the ones that shoot the best. I shot a lot of 30 carbine and 110gr varmint because it is cheap and available.
It can also be used with the blackout, 30 carbine, etc.. + black powder in a shtf last resource deal.

I see about the chart...
I think the chart is confusing but the velocities are in range.
I have not tested any of these loads in anything below 14".
I was looking online to find testings of the 80gr amax in 16" barrels but only found the equivalent 77gr TMK and MK262
One of the reasons I test all the ammo I can get with a 16" carbine is because it is so hard to get accurate data online plus
then I know the actual speeds from my barrels and the huge differences between ammo makers. For example, 55gr PMC bronce has great
brass but it is almost 300fps slower than the M193 Lake City from the same 16" carbine.

It seems most people who test the longer match bullets do it only for 18" and 20" barrels .

Black hills 77gr TMK from both 11.5" SBR and 16" barrel.
In line with Hornady and MK262(NATO) speeds of similar weights and ballistics.


I put those values on the hornady calculator and get comparable results to what I get with my tests and calculator with a 10 fps difference give and take...

77gr TMK Black Hills from a 16" carbine vives 2,775 fps avg. ...@100 yards 1,125 ft-lb and 2,566fps.

Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.42 Velocity (ft/s) 2775 Weight (grains) 77
Maximum Range (yds) 500 Interval (yds) 100 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 100
Wind Speed (mph) 10 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 555
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 223R Black Hills 77gr TMK - 16" AR carbine
RANGE(YARDS) VELOCITY(FPS) ENERGY(FT.-LB.) TRAJECTORY(IN) COME UP IN MOA COME UP IN MILS WIND DRIFT(IN) WIND DRIFT IN MOA WIND DRIFT IN MILS
Muzzle 2775 1317 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 2565 1125 0 0 0 0.8 0.8 0.2
200 2365 956 -3.8 1.8 0.5 3.2 1.5 0.4
300 2173 808 -13.8 4.4 1.3 7.5 2.4 0.7
400 1991 678 -31.2 7.5 2.2 13.8 3.3 1
500 1818 565 -57.5 11 3.2 22.6 4.3 1.3

Same Black Hills at long range.
As you can see a very serious round that retains energy and speed very well. Very consistent bullet and load, very accurate.


You will never see rSilvers (The seller of the blackout) comparing the blackout to these type of loads because it is
not in their best interest to show the full potential of the 223.

 

[dsdmmat]

The 77 otm and 77 tmk are impressive loads. The 223/5.56 is definately a flatter shooting round than the 300.

I have never considered the 300 to be a round for anything beyond 200 for plinking. I will shoot my 223s out to 400 any day of the week. The rainbow trajectory of the 300 is just not great for target shooting, it can be done ( I am just not going to waste the powder and bullets on it). Although there are some vids out there on you tube which claim strikes at 800 yards with it.

For me the 300 is only good for killing things at 100 and closer if one uses 1000 foot pounds of energy as the cut off for humane killing of animals. It dumps energy rather quIckly after 100, which is why I consider 100 yards the clean kill cut off point. Pretty much the same with the 223/5.56 after 100 yards out of a 16 inch barrel. I know people have killed things out to stupid distances with the 223/5.56, I use 1000 ft pounds as a benchmark for the sake of having a benchmark.

I am going to order a green mountain barrel 21.5 inch chambered barrel blank in 300 BLK to play with. I have the Ruger American Ranch in 300 so I will be able to chrono the velocity from a bolt gun and compare it to another bolt gun at different lengths to see if there is any velocity gain between 16 and 21.5 inches. I don't intend to leave it longer than 18 but if the velocity increase is substantial enough I may leave it longer. I have a feeling there won't be enough of an increase in velocity to warrant leaving the barrel at 21 inches. There may even be a velocity loss because of the length. We shall see at least it will be something interesting to do over the winter.

 

[meketrefe]

yes the modern 223 is a big departure from what we had 30 years ago. not just the ammo but
firearms, magazines, the whole nine yards. In the ideal world the 223 would be a 6mm (like
the 6x45 or very similar) but that is what we have and it is not so bad.

I would be careful with too long of a barrel for the whisper because you might not have enough capacity and they will actually slow down the loads wiht the extra bore volume. At the other hand subsonic loads will be quieter than a tiny fart so there is no need for suppressor, (nor that we can have one in newyorkistan anyway.

I have been thinking about turning my whisper barrel and other barrels to be threaded into a custom inlet so I can swap barrels in 1 minute
and shoot several alternative calibers using the Remington 700 with AR15 magazines. I think this also would make a great alternative to the
contender people since it makes a lot cheaper and easier to own alternative calibers and on top on a bolt action repeater.
I mean, inside the 16" rifle regulation. For a pistol one will have to do the same with a pistol bolt action but I am not into that.

 

[dsdmmat]

Which bottom metal are you considering for your 700? I was looking at the Pacific tool and Gauge site the have a bottom metal that will accept AR mags. I am going to do a 700 this year in 35 Remington so I will use the bottom metal from my 223 after I convert it to AR mags.

I picked 35 Remington because I have a lever gun in it and it would be nice to have a bolt gun in it just as a companion range gun. My lever gun can cool off while I shoot the bolt gun and Vice versa.

 

[meketrefe]

I didn't buy that one instead I used an adaptor for the saiga 223 from the Magnolia State Armory in TX.
If it was today I would use the PTG and also flute the bolt with two flutes where the magazines go to improve contact area that I might do anyway.
The key is that the bottom needs to have some give so the different magazines that vary in length will give a little even if they drag a little
bit in the feeding lips that I don't have a problem with.
The idea here is to re thread the action and provide a bushing system to head space the different barrels.
It has to be as simple as one or two screws to clamp down on it w/o taking the action apart.

 

[dsdmmat]

I didn't buy that one instead I used an adaptor for the saiga 223 from the Magnolia State Armory in TX.
If it was today I would use the PTG and also flute the bolt with two flutes where the magazines go to improve contact area that I might do anyway.
The key is that the bottom needs to have some give so the different magazines that vary in length will give a little even if they drag a little
bit in the feeding lips that I don't have a problem with.
The idea here is to re thread the action and provide a bushing system to head space the different barrels.
It has to be as simple as one or two screws to clamp down on it w/o taking the action apart.

a quick change assembly like the new M2A1? That sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[meketrefe]

The problem is not to make a quick change the problem is we need a cam for the high pressures unless we want
to thread every barrel. I might end up doing the thread if I cannot machine something easy. I don't have the machining
tools nor expertise to do a very complex part.

 

[dsdmmat]

The problem is not to make a quick change the problem is we need a cam for the high pressures unless we want
to thread every barrel. I might end up doing the thread if I cannot machine something easy. I don't have the machining
tools nor expertise to do a very complex part.

the friends of mine that have quick change barrels for their guns all machined witness marks in them so they tighten to the witness marks check headspace to verify and they are done. One of them machined the end of the barrel to be a hex nut and that is how he tightens his barrels up and removes them.

 

[meketrefe]

the friends of mine that have quick change barrels for their guns all machined witness marks in them so they tighten to the witness marks check headspace to verify and they are done. One of them machined the end of the barrel to be a hex nut and that is how he tightens his barrels up and removes them.

that is a great idea to integrate a nut but still needs the space to take a grasp. I used witness marks in the past but for some reason the POI changes. I want to try something that returns to zero. I know it is going to be hard.
I found that a property heat treated buffer tube nut is strong enough to torque the barrel to 40ft-lb and since it uses an open tool
I could keep scope and chasis on provided that I provide a break down screw for the forearm. Or might machine another thread to
screw a custom tube. At this point I don't even care about looks. It will look better than the TC dimension anyway!
The 12 point 30mm standard can ge used as they also have open tools that can fit w/o touching the scope.
Perhaps this should move to a gunsmithing section as this has nothing to do with the whisper.

 

[dsdmmat]

You may want to take a look at some of the quick change barrel systems for the AR.

 

[meketrefe]

Not for the AR but bolt action.

 

[dsdmmat]

Not for the AR but bolt action.

I thought so but I was covering all the bases.