BerettaGuy
.308 Win
Let me know your recipe.
Why is FMJ Bad For Hunting?
- Thread starter Marine Cpl
- Start date
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Good subject.
fmjs are not all the same. They change a lot from one caliber to another and one brand to another.
In some cases they are great bullets in others they are not good depending on several factors.
"Any" fmj for "many" hunting applications is not a popular choice because their terminal behavior can be unpredictable
vs a bullet that has been specifically designed for the purpose at hand including matching caliber, bullet
design and weight to the game animal that is what ethical and professional hunters do.
The thing with hard case flat metplat is that they are great on heavy game because large calibers even
w/o the expansion displace a lot of water creating massive wound channels and normally penetrate
deep in those animals where penetration is needed.
But these bullets like fmjs also have limitations specially range / reach. One will drop speed faster and the
other will show pin hole wounding after 200 yards. This is the case with the 7.62x39 Russian ammo for
example that use a much thicker jacket and a result stouter fmj.
I think FMJs can be a great choice for hunting, but again, specific bullets and ammo purpose chosen.
In a home defense situation might be great but also the same consideration must be taken if something
better for the task is out there.
fmjs are not all the same. They change a lot from one caliber to another and one brand to another.
In some cases they are great bullets in others they are not good depending on several factors.
"Any" fmj for "many" hunting applications is not a popular choice because their terminal behavior can be unpredictable
vs a bullet that has been specifically designed for the purpose at hand including matching caliber, bullet
design and weight to the game animal that is what ethical and professional hunters do.
The thing with hard case flat metplat is that they are great on heavy game because large calibers even
w/o the expansion displace a lot of water creating massive wound channels and normally penetrate
deep in those animals where penetration is needed.
But these bullets like fmjs also have limitations specially range / reach. One will drop speed faster and the
other will show pin hole wounding after 200 yards. This is the case with the 7.62x39 Russian ammo for
example that use a much thicker jacket and a result stouter fmj.
I think FMJs can be a great choice for hunting, but again, specific bullets and ammo purpose chosen.
In a home defense situation might be great but also the same consideration must be taken if something
better for the task is out there.
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ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
For the pointy vs flat question: Humans and game are basically bags of water with a skeleton. What happens when you cliff jump and go into the water with pointed toes? What happens when you cannon ball? It's fairly similar in thin skinned bags of water like humans, deer, coyotes, black bears, etc. Flat noses displace the watery tissue quickly and does good damage. Pointy noses wedge into to watery tissue, causing less violent displacement but penetrating farther.
Now, if this is the only mechanism at work then FMJ would always produce pencil wounding (which can still kill, but generally not as quickly or reliably without a CNS hit). Bullets are spun as they proceed down a barrel so that they are stable in flight. Stability depends on rate of spin, bullet length and speed. Bullet stability can be calculated and given a number. When a bullet slows quickly it will destabilize and yaw (keyhole). When this happens, the frontal area changes from bullet tip size to bullet lengthwise cross-section size. It can be devastating. This is why early M16s (1 in 14 and 1 in 12 twist) produced crazy trajectories through bodies and M4s (1 in 7 twist) have more pencil wounding reports. Thin skinned humans aren't always enough to destabilize the bullets shot with the 1/7 twist and the bullet never yaws or fragments. Of course bone hits often force deformation and yawing/fragmentation and can make FMJ and/or OTMs quite effective.
However, if the drop in velocity is also accompanied by a shortening of the bullet by shedding weight or deformation, the bullet will remain stable and continue on a fairly straight trajectory. Bullets that deform change from pointy to flat(ish) and start transferring energy more violently. Energy transfer is absolutely relevant - Newton's Third Law right? (equal and opposite reaction) Bullets impacts are mostly just incredibly fast and focused blunt force trauma.
The difference between NA game and African is the amount of tissue you need to penetrate to reach vitals and how much tougher the bone and skin (water bags) are. They are different animals and you need different bullets to kill them. There is some overlap when you get to brown bears, moose, pigs, etc.
There are so many factors that can change terminal ballistics. Choosing a bullet is really about stacking as many advantages as you can for your likely circumstance. Ballistic tips have a relatively thin jacket. They'll perform beautifully on an average deer with a double lung shot most of the time. But if you try to shoot a 200+ pound buck straight up the ass you should expect to do some tracking. Especially if you hit the hip or leg bone, the bullet will break up before it reaches the liver or lungs. Will there be enough damage to kill it? Probably. Will it live long enough to run several hundred yards? Probably.
As a disclaimer, I'm not an expert. I try to find and read what I think are fairly credible sources on this stuff and this is just how I've come to understand this topic from doing that. I could certainly be wrong and if people steer me toward other information, I'd welcome it.
For my part, this is a great average Joe study of bullets. It's specific to 6.8 bullets but it shows different terminal behaviors between bullets and as impact velocity changes. One very interesting thing he's found is that OTMs almost always yaw and break up from the middle, leaving the tip intact.
Now, if this is the only mechanism at work then FMJ would always produce pencil wounding (which can still kill, but generally not as quickly or reliably without a CNS hit). Bullets are spun as they proceed down a barrel so that they are stable in flight. Stability depends on rate of spin, bullet length and speed. Bullet stability can be calculated and given a number. When a bullet slows quickly it will destabilize and yaw (keyhole). When this happens, the frontal area changes from bullet tip size to bullet lengthwise cross-section size. It can be devastating. This is why early M16s (1 in 14 and 1 in 12 twist) produced crazy trajectories through bodies and M4s (1 in 7 twist) have more pencil wounding reports. Thin skinned humans aren't always enough to destabilize the bullets shot with the 1/7 twist and the bullet never yaws or fragments. Of course bone hits often force deformation and yawing/fragmentation and can make FMJ and/or OTMs quite effective.
However, if the drop in velocity is also accompanied by a shortening of the bullet by shedding weight or deformation, the bullet will remain stable and continue on a fairly straight trajectory. Bullets that deform change from pointy to flat(ish) and start transferring energy more violently. Energy transfer is absolutely relevant - Newton's Third Law right? (equal and opposite reaction) Bullets impacts are mostly just incredibly fast and focused blunt force trauma.
The difference between NA game and African is the amount of tissue you need to penetrate to reach vitals and how much tougher the bone and skin (water bags) are. They are different animals and you need different bullets to kill them. There is some overlap when you get to brown bears, moose, pigs, etc.
There are so many factors that can change terminal ballistics. Choosing a bullet is really about stacking as many advantages as you can for your likely circumstance. Ballistic tips have a relatively thin jacket. They'll perform beautifully on an average deer with a double lung shot most of the time. But if you try to shoot a 200+ pound buck straight up the ass you should expect to do some tracking. Especially if you hit the hip or leg bone, the bullet will break up before it reaches the liver or lungs. Will there be enough damage to kill it? Probably. Will it live long enough to run several hundred yards? Probably.
As a disclaimer, I'm not an expert. I try to find and read what I think are fairly credible sources on this stuff and this is just how I've come to understand this topic from doing that. I could certainly be wrong and if people steer me toward other information, I'd welcome it.
For my part, this is a great average Joe study of bullets. It's specific to 6.8 bullets but it shows different terminal behaviors between bullets and as impact velocity changes. One very interesting thing he's found is that OTMs almost always yaw and break up from the middle, leaving the tip intact.
I want to say it was 19 grains of 4198 with a 165gn hardcast least RNFP. It wasn’t accurate though. I’m going to try 21 next time. The book goes up to 24. If I can’t work it, I’ll try another powder.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
What I get out of this discussion for me is that if a HP bullet penetrates enough, it is better. For example. Hunting deer with a 62 or 75 gr TSX that'll expand and penetrate both sides. Not so if hunting a thicker animal like a buffalo. On a human, a HP like described above in a rifle is good too. It'll penetrate both sides no matter what the angle or barrier within reason.
Now when it comes to handguns where they only pretty much penetrate around the 12 to 18 inch mark in gel (Not the same for a body), it isn't enough for animals unless using an extremely large caliber like a .454 Casull and even then for bigger animals, hard casts are needed. For humans a HP will penetrate enough in most cases. Not all. For that reason of not all cases like extremely fat or muscular people or having to go through thick barriers like truck doors, I choose solids.
Now when it comes to handguns where they only pretty much penetrate around the 12 to 18 inch mark in gel (Not the same for a body), it isn't enough for animals unless using an extremely large caliber like a .454 Casull and even then for bigger animals, hard casts are needed. For humans a HP will penetrate enough in most cases. Not all. For that reason of not all cases like extremely fat or muscular people or having to go through thick barriers like truck doors, I choose solids.
I've seen game get shot at 10yds with a 300win mag and leave prefect hole straight threw clean like a laser that same gun later that day smoke a buck at 200 plus yes and it looked like a bomb went off blow the whole left side of the ribs out. Same gun same ammo just different range and speed of impact.
Hard cast will deform at the right speeds.
Now I know two old times that swear by SWC for hunting. Hence the Elmer Keith bullet. I've even seen jacket bullet of the same or simular desigh. When you talk handgun hunting Elmer Keith is the guy.
Hard cast will deform at the right speeds.
Now I know two old times that swear by SWC for hunting. Hence the Elmer Keith bullet. I've even seen jacket bullet of the same or simular desigh. When you talk handgun hunting Elmer Keith is the guy.
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ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
Do you know what bullet? I'm guessing Berger or something of similar construction.
Here's an example of a hp that acted like an fmj. Speer 125gr TNT .308 shot out of a 300blk. Using starting powder load probably resulting in 1900fps give or take velocity. The bullet tore through the insides from a quartering away shot. No indication it hit bone and veered. Lodging finally just under the skin in the neck penetrating initially in the upper middle rib section. Deer went approx 60yds and collapsed. No deformation of the bullet not even tip expansion. Now, had this went straight through, absent vitals, probably no recovery as blood was all inside the cavity. Entry wound very difficult to find.
"IT WILL KILL"
"IT WILL KILL"
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Maybe this is a good example of a bullet not to trust. What bullet was it?
In 99% of the situations the same bullet impacting at higher speeds will activate more aggressively. This is pretty fundamental physics.
So one explanation is that the same bullet activating at slower speeds is that it might need to impact in a different area or a
bone to initiate that activation.
I don't know of any win mag that will fail to activate at 10 yards or perhaps just hit the skin tissue.
That is why I am asking about the bullet. Manufactures can also make a mistake with a defective bullet that is for sure.
Hornady Superformance
165gr I thought they where SSTs but it looks like they are GMXs.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
Wow, I'm very surprised. I thought copper solids especially did better at higher velocity.
Glenn B
.308 Win
Willjr75,
First you ask (in the title): Why is FMJ Bad For Hunting? Then you go onto explain how large game is often taken by solid cast bullets. Solid cast bullets and FMJ bullets are not one and the same. I am not a cartridge or bullet expert, not eve marginally familiar with all the pros and or cons of one compared to the other, but they are as far as I have been led to believe quite different from one another. My guess (and it is just a guess) would be that hard cast solid projectiles are heavier than a full metal jacket bullets of the same dimensions. I would think that more than enough reason to use a hard cast lead bullet to hunt REALLY BIG game instead of an FMJ. Now mind you, I am not saying a hard cast bullet is heavier than an FMJ because it is lead as opposed to the FMJ being copper clad lead, let alone copper clad steel core ammo which would be worthless for BIG game hunting (and I note you show pics with damage from FMJ rounds on medium game but talk about hunting REALLY BIG game). Hard cast bullets are not merely lead bullets as can be read about here but I would bet when compared to an FMJ round of the same exact dimensions they are probably heavier.
Now if what you meant to say was 'Why are solid bullets (instead of saying FMJ) bad for hunting?' - well, the answer is they are not (at least as I see it and I have taken the advice of numerous people more knowledgeable on the subject than I, or at least I trust they are more so). That is at least when it comes to certain game animals and hunting them with hard cast bullets. In the USA those would be bear of any of our three species, moose and elk. That said, one of the reasons you may not find solid lead bullets in hunting calibers (as opposed to cowboy calibers) is because lead can badly deform even when traveling down the bore to the point tat it effects accuracy. Hard cast bullets do not deform like lead. Of course, FMJ rounds do not deform either so why use hard cast instead of FMJ rounds for TRULY big game? My guess or deduction would be that you should opt for hard cast because dimension for dimension (as I hypothesized above) are heavier than regular (copper clad) FMJ rounds. As far as finding hard cast bullet for rifles, go figure why not if you cannot not. I cannot explain it.
Right now I am both too lazy and too tipsy (got the garden work done and am enjoying a cocktail as I type) to do the research on my weight theory but
somebody who is an eager beaver, and not quite as lit as I am right now, may want to check that by comparing weights FMJ versus hard cast rounds with the same exact dimensions. Of course, you could always just call a company that produces hard cast bullets or cartridges with hard cast bullets and ask them.
Now, I am going to finish my drink, have something eat, put away the garden tools and then head to the local watering hole to enjoy some more of a heavenly beverage.
Have a nice weekend all.
All the best,
GB
First you ask (in the title): Why is FMJ Bad For Hunting? Then you go onto explain how large game is often taken by solid cast bullets. Solid cast bullets and FMJ bullets are not one and the same. I am not a cartridge or bullet expert, not eve marginally familiar with all the pros and or cons of one compared to the other, but they are as far as I have been led to believe quite different from one another. My guess (and it is just a guess) would be that hard cast solid projectiles are heavier than a full metal jacket bullets of the same dimensions. I would think that more than enough reason to use a hard cast lead bullet to hunt REALLY BIG game instead of an FMJ. Now mind you, I am not saying a hard cast bullet is heavier than an FMJ because it is lead as opposed to the FMJ being copper clad lead, let alone copper clad steel core ammo which would be worthless for BIG game hunting (and I note you show pics with damage from FMJ rounds on medium game but talk about hunting REALLY BIG game). Hard cast bullets are not merely lead bullets as can be read about here but I would bet when compared to an FMJ round of the same exact dimensions they are probably heavier.
Now if what you meant to say was 'Why are solid bullets (instead of saying FMJ) bad for hunting?' - well, the answer is they are not (at least as I see it and I have taken the advice of numerous people more knowledgeable on the subject than I, or at least I trust they are more so). That is at least when it comes to certain game animals and hunting them with hard cast bullets. In the USA those would be bear of any of our three species, moose and elk. That said, one of the reasons you may not find solid lead bullets in hunting calibers (as opposed to cowboy calibers) is because lead can badly deform even when traveling down the bore to the point tat it effects accuracy. Hard cast bullets do not deform like lead. Of course, FMJ rounds do not deform either so why use hard cast instead of FMJ rounds for TRULY big game? My guess or deduction would be that you should opt for hard cast because dimension for dimension (as I hypothesized above) are heavier than regular (copper clad) FMJ rounds. As far as finding hard cast bullet for rifles, go figure why not if you cannot not. I cannot explain it.
Right now I am both too lazy and too tipsy (got the garden work done and am enjoying a cocktail as I type) to do the research on my weight theory but
somebody who is an eager beaver, and not quite as lit as I am right now, may want to check that by comparing weights FMJ versus hard cast rounds with the same exact dimensions. Of course, you could always just call a company that produces hard cast bullets or cartridges with hard cast bullets and ask them.
Now, I am going to finish my drink, have something eat, put away the garden tools and then head to the local watering hole to enjoy some more of a heavenly beverage.
Have a nice weekend all.
All the best,
GB
Glenn B
.308 Win
That (and the rest of that scene) was an okay scene in the movie but certainly nowhere near the best. The best scene by far was this one and it came right after that one ended:
In fact, there may never have been a better scene in any non-porn movie!
(And note, I spelled everything the way she said it).
What man could ask for more!!!!!!!!!!!! I loved that woman, still do!
Sorry to divert from the thread but with that other video added, I felt compelled to add this one.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
The issue is that fmj can mean many things.
It can be a protected point flat met plat by the jacket.
It can be a flat nose to help with expansion but to keep
the bullet together for deep penetration (Bonded too)
It can have a thick jacket, thin jacket, lead core, steel core, hollow tip, partition core, etc...
So many options that it is better to talk about specific bullets FMJ or not. We should not generalize.
For many countries fmj is a associated with cheaper bullets. Some russian and chinesse
use thicker metal jackets and thiner copper jackets because the steel is way cheaper than
the copper. This is not so good for the barrels in the long run but it pays off.
As a result those bullets can also be more unpredictable unless it includes something in the
section to induce a type of behavior upon impact.
In general the small arms bulk ammo from those places is not the best but it can
also include some nice features even if cheaply made. Accuracy is also so-so but
it doesn't mean all surplus or eastern is bad.
It can be a protected point flat met plat by the jacket.
It can be a flat nose to help with expansion but to keep
the bullet together for deep penetration (Bonded too)
It can have a thick jacket, thin jacket, lead core, steel core, hollow tip, partition core, etc...
So many options that it is better to talk about specific bullets FMJ or not. We should not generalize.
For many countries fmj is a associated with cheaper bullets. Some russian and chinesse
use thicker metal jackets and thiner copper jackets because the steel is way cheaper than
the copper. This is not so good for the barrels in the long run but it pays off.
As a result those bullets can also be more unpredictable unless it includes something in the
section to induce a type of behavior upon impact.
In general the small arms bulk ammo from those places is not the best but it can
also include some nice features even if cheaply made. Accuracy is also so-so but
it doesn't mean all surplus or eastern is bad.
FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
I can't comment much on using FMJ for hunting but I have been using JHP handgun bullets on deer for 20 some years. Every deer I've taken has been DRT except for one that I had to track 40yds or so. But that was because I could have placed the shot better. Even then, I've never had a problem with penetration. Always had an exit would, except for that last buck that I tracked, but the bullet wad found in the opposite hind quarter just under the skin. All of them busted bone on the way through. The last was completely intact and expanded well. I can post a picture of it when I get home. All the previous deer were shot with a TC Encore 209x50 w/150g Pyrodex. The last is the same Encore w/15" barrel and 100g 777. The bullets are Hornady XTP , I forget what the weight is though.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Deer are thin and soft. Like humans.