Why Use Hollow Points?

[NirvanaFan]

Dr. Fackler claimed that a study of rifle bullet wounds in Vietnam (Wound Data and Munitions Effectiveness Team) found “no cases of bones being broken, or major vessels torn, that were not hit by the penetrating bullet. In only two cases, an organ that was not hit (but was within a few cm of the projectile path), suffered some disruption.” Dr. Fackler cited a personal communication with R. F. Bellamy.[16]However, Bellamy’s published findings the following year[20] estimated that 10% of fractures in the data set might be due to indirect injuries, and one specific case is described in detail (pp. 153–154). In addition, the published analysis documents five instances of abdominal wounding in cases where the bullet did not penetrate the abdominal cavity (pp. 149–152), a case of lung contusion resulting from a hit to the shoulder (pp. 146–149), and a case of indirect effects on the central nervous system (p. 155). Fackler's critics argue that Fackler's evidence does not contradict distant injuries, as Fackler claimed, but the WDMET data from Vietnam actually provides supporting evidence for it.[20][21]

The military doesn't use hollow points, do they? A FMJ won't produce much shock wave.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Someone beat me to the frying pan comment....

You should go with a .45 if you want to carry anything that does not expand.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I disagree with that. It only takes a little bit more area to do more damage to an artery or vein, or nick another one.

That's semantics. We should all be carrying the largest bullet then because a 44 Magnum will expand much larger than a .38, 9mm, .357, or .40. that extra millimeter might nick an artery.

 

[Greywolf224]

The military doesn't use hollow points, do they? A FMJ won't produce much shock wave.

I believe as per the Geneva Convention its unethical to use anything other than FMJ. The intent being to wound and stop not obliterate an opposing soldier.

 

[ECU Pirates]

I'll take the first shot.



Kidding. I don't want you to die so I'll use my 1911.

Make sure you use the slowest 230 gr wolf you can find.

 

[ECU Pirates]

That's semantics. We should all be carrying the largest bullet then because a 44 Magnum will expand much larger than a .38, 9mm, .357, or .40. that extra millimeter might nick an artery.

.44 special is a better choice!

 

[Marine Cpl]

The military doesn't use hollow points, do they? A FMJ won't produce much shock wave.

Correct. However he is talking about rifle bullets that do produce Hydrostatic Shock.

Few if any are shot with handgun bullets in combat.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Make sure you use the slowest 230 gr wolf you can find.

Wolf 230 gr 850 fps
Federal HST 230 gr 890 fps

 

[Marine Cpl]

Hey at least we are talking about guns and bullets!

 

[NirvanaFan]

That's semantics. We should all be carrying the largest bullet then because a 44 Magnum will expand much larger than a .38, 9mm, .357, or .40. that extra millimeter might nick an artery.

There are tradeoffs with going up in caliber. People in free states can carry 17 rounds of 9mm. I'd argue that is better than 6 rounds of 44 mag.

I'm not saying that people should choose a bullet based on hydrostatic shock, but it helps incapacitate an attacker. It certainly doesn't make the bullet do worse.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It certainly doesn't make the bullet do worse.

That my friend we can agree on. For the record, I'm not changing my Federal HST 124 gr out of my pistol.

I only do so in the woods and change to Buffalo Bore 147 gr+P Hard Cast Flat Points.

 

[GOPerfect]

I say why not, nothing lost. Only gains.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If anything what I'm getting out of this is to stock up on cheaper Flat Points for SHTF.

Overpenetration will be meaningless then and perhaps favorable.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Wolf 230 gr 850 fps
Federal HST 230 gr 890 fps

I used to get more like 780 over the chrono years ago.

 

[GOPerfect]

If anything what I'm getting out of this is to stock up on cheaper Flat Points for SHTF.

Overpenetration will be meaningless then and perhaps favorable.

Time, place and event for each and every piece of equipment!

 

[carpediem]

You guys have pretty thoroughly discussed both sides of this discussion, and I find it to be a pretty good discussion to have. For me, and I can only speak for myself, carrying HP in my EDC is driven by a couple things that give me some comfort. First, the over penetration situation is a valid concern in todays litigious society. Second, the deformation of the round may enhance the damage over a clean through and through hole. My ideas may be wrong, but what the hell. If HP offers even a miniscule increase in performance over FMJ, I will take it. Good points on both sides though.

 

[meketrefe]

I think those hollow points should be filled with bacon due to the security situation we have in this country.

 

[pseudonymity]

Correct. However he is talking about rifle bullets that do produce Hydrostatic Shock.

Pistol bullets produce lots of shock also, just not at the velocities they are fired out a pistol

One of the best materials to cause hydrostatic shock is air - get it moving at 26000+ fps with a RDX based charge like C4 and it does plenty of damage with nearly no mass at all.

 

[Darth]

Pistol bullets produce lots of shock also, just not at the velocities they are fired out a pistol

One of the best materials to cause hydrostatic shock is air - get it moving at 26000+ fps with a RDX based charge like C4 and it does plenty of damage with nearly no mass at all.

 

[RandallOfLegend]

I believe as per the Geneva Convention its unethical to use anything other than FMJ. The intent being to wound and stop not obliterate an opposing soldier.

Hague Convention, and the US never signed it.

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There has been a significant amount of wound ballistics study. With typical handguns, bullets do crush damage. Hollow points do significantly more damage when they expand. If they don't expand they do as much damage as a flat or hollow point bullet. The more crush damage a target receives the more blood they lose and the faster they go down. Barring any hit to the central nervous system. Bullets from non-magnum level calibers won't do hydro static shock damage.

 

[Greywolf224]

Hague Convention, and the US never signed it.

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There has been a significant amount of wound ballistics study. With typical handguns, bullets do crush damage. Hollow points do significantly more damage when they expand. If they don't expand they do as much damage as a flat or hollow point bullet. The more crush damage a target receives the more blood they lose and the faster they go down. Barring any hit to the central nervous system. Bullets from non-magnum level calibers won't do hydro static shock damage.

Thanks for setting me straight.

 

[Snappo]

Thanks for setting me straight.

I think there were 2 conventions at Hague and 4 at Geneva plus 3 protocol conventions for biological warfare and whatnot. Is that true that we never agreed to some of those conventions and protocols? I always felt we should not have agreed to canning Neutron Bomb technology. Killing all human life while saving infrastructure is a genius idea. How much money did the Marshall Plan cost us with regard to rebuilding Europe after WW II? We got dragged in by Japan and Germany, then we had to rebuild the friggin continent - how is that even remotely fair?

 

[RandallOfLegend]

Thanks for setting me straight.

It's often misquoted as Geneva convention. I don't fault people for using the wrong name.

It will be interesting to see how our soldiers like using 9mm jhps when they finally reach the battlefield. I am sure there will be an arms race over which JHP design is superior. I would guess that the Army would use something with less expansion and favor barrier penetration.

 

[Snappo]

So I read a post in Arfcom and I have to say, the guy had some compelling arguments.

What does a hollow point gain you except limit penetration? Expansion you say but does a millimeter or two of expansion really make a difference?

If you get shot in a non vital area such as an arm or a leg by a bullet that is .355 millimeters in width compared to a bullet that is .50 millimeters in width after expansion, the result would be the same. You'd bleed profusely. You aren't going to bleed more to make a difference with an extra millimeter or two. In fact, you'll have an entry and an exit wound with a bullet that passes through.

However, if shot in a vital area with either the non expanding bullet at .355 or the expanded bullet at .50 you'll die just the same.

His argument is that the FBI went to expanding bullets to limit penetration to stop in the human body to limit collateral damage from overpenetration from bullets that still have power to do damage beyond. This is lawsuit related according to him.

For many years, flat pointed .38 Specials had an excellent track record. Nobody complained then. Guys who were shot with them died depending on if vitals were hit. An NYPD Officer killed a Polar Bear in the zoo with such a round. Recently, an Alaskan Guide also killed a Grizzly Bear with a Flat Pointed 9mm.

I tend to agree with him that it's just a liability issue.

Missed shots are overpenetrators as well.

If an extra millimeter or two really makes a difference in stopping an attacker then why doesn't the FBI just use a bullet that hits that magic number of width?

Food for thought. Flat Point bullets have killed many men and animals with no issues in the past. In fact, they are preferred for big game handgun hunting.

What say you?

A few things happen as a bullet travels through a human. One is the wound channel itself. That's the side of the bullet or the size of the fragments. The next is the shock cavity. The energy is being displaced into something (humans) that is 80% water or thereabouts. I would want the biggest wound channel possible and the biggest shock cavity possible. I would want a shock cavity that displaces so much energy that it turns organs into jello. Carlos Hathcock totally had the right vision. He put a scope on an AN-M2 (Ma Deuce) so he could start taking apart bad guys with 50 BMG rounds. Now I think the better choice is a cannon that shoots bowling balls or billiard balls. A bowling ball ripping through a bad guy would insure there was no way he would get fixed up and come back to try and kill you a second time.

 

[Marine Cpl]

A .355 diameter sized hole compared to a .50 diameter sized hole will make absolutely no significant difference in wounding is my stance.

I also believe that energy transfer from Hydrostatic Shock from the relatively slow velocity from a pistol round does not aid in stopping power as said by Dr. Fackler.

 

[Snappo]

I believe as per the Geneva Convention its unethical to use anything other than FMJ. The intent being to wound and stop not obliterate an opposing soldier.

Napalm and flame throwers are OK but no BTHPs?

 

[Snappo]

A .355 diameter sized hole compared to a .50 diameter sized hole will make absolutely no significant difference in wounding is my stance.

I also believe that energy transfer from Hydrostatic Shock from the relatively slow velocity from a pistol round does not aid in stopping power as said by Dr. Fackler.

Let's test it out. Trump said we can shoot illegals and Muslims at will.

 

[pmcjuryny]

Flat Points. Not FMJ's.

And energy dump doesn't kill or else you'd die if hit wearing a bullet proof vest.

And whether the wound is .355 inches in diameter compared to .50 inches in diameter, blood loss will be the same. A millimeter or two makes no difference.

You are comparing diameter, but try comparing the surface area of the expanded bullets. A quick check shows a .355 diameter object, has a front surface area of .09, while an expand bullet with a diameter of .5 has a front surface area of .2, so that extra millimeter or so of expansion is nearly doubling the front surface area of the projectile, not a small change.

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[pmcjuryny]

Flat Points. Not FMJ's.

And energy dump doesn't kill or else you'd die if hit wearing a bullet proof vest.

And whether the wound is .355 inches in diameter compared to .50 inches in diameter, blood loss will be the same. A millimeter or two makes no difference.

You are comparing diameter, but try comparing the surface area of the expanded bullets. A quick check shows a .355 diameter object, has a front surface area of .09, while an expand bullet with a diameter of .5 has a front surface area of .2, so that extra millimeter or so of expansion is nearly doubling the front surface area of the projectile, not a small change.

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[pmcjuryny]

Flat Points. Not FMJ's.

And energy dump doesn't kill or else you'd die if hit wearing a bullet proof vest.

And whether the wound is .355 inches in diameter compared to .50 inches in diameter, blood loss will be the same. A millimeter or two makes no difference.

You are comparing diameter, but try comparing the surface area of the expanded bullets. A quick check shows a .355 diameter object, has a front surface area of .09, while an expand bullet with a diameter of .5 has a front surface area of .2, so that extra millimeter or so of expansion is nearly doubling the front surface area of the projectile, not a small change.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Sorry tripled tapped the post with tapatalk