AR Pistol Discontinued

[FP1201]

@FP1201 Maybe we are both trying to say the same thing and not understanding each other. And I’m not trying to sound like an jerk or anything, just so nothing can get misconstrued…as simple as you can make the next statement, what point is it exactly that your attempting to make?

This is the text of the original post:
Does anyone know why Springfield has discontinued the AR pistol platform?
I called the Armory and was told it was due to a supply issue. Does this seem
like a lame excuse to anyone but me? Thanks.

I replied: Might be onto something: the only things "different" on an AR Pistol is a rounded buffer tube, shorter barrel and short gas tube (possibly handguards) nothing really difficult or significant.....(irrelevant text)

Now this discussion started around a Gun formerly in production by a reputable company, and according to OP per his call to SA it's a supply issue, but we don't know what items are in short supply, my assertion was there are only a few things different on what the industry calls a "Pistol" that being the obviously shorter parts that differ somewhat from those associated with Carbines, Rifles, SBR's and even "Other" firearms.

What it evolved to seems to be the suggestion that no such parts exist or aren't unique to those guns with the charismatics of a Handgun, to which I say there are Industry standard references. Sure you can put what ever sized barrel you wish on an upper receiver, makes no difference UNTIL you pin it on a lower *, then you have a whole other set of Laws to comply with.

* There is a term called Constructive Intent, where if you had both the assembled upper and lower but were separated, it could be construed that you intended to mate the two together. (simplistic explanation)

 

[Xae289]

Serious question: there are pistol braces that attach to standard buffer tubes? I thought part of the workaround was that buffer tubes for braces all had bigger outside diameters so that stocks couldn't be fitted onto them.

 

[FP1201]

Serious question: there are pistol braces that attach to standard buffer tubes? I thought part of the workaround was that buffer tubes for braces all had bigger outside diameters so that stocks couldn't be fitted onto them.

I do not know if a Brace will attach (slotted at the 6:00 position) to slide over a Carbine/Collapsible Tube.
There are two different diameters for the Carbine Tube: "Mil Spec" and one slightly larger called "Commercial" sized, and for a stock, a Commercial will fit over a Mil-Spec and be loose, but the inverse won't work.
A Rifle length Tube is the same diameter as a "Pistol Tube" and a Mil-Spec. except it lacks the underlug that collapsible stocks detent into.

 

[Will556]

A barrel is a barrel is a barrel, only the legality of the finished product matters, and when you order a very short one, it's likely going to be called a "Pistol Barrel" and will need a very short gas tube typically referred to as a "pistol tube" and if you don't like the buffer tubes typically used with collapsible stocks or original Rifle Butt-stock ask for a "Pistol buffer tube".

I've no knowledge if SA is/has/did run out of Parts, wouldn't think so, but Remington (a much larger Company) cease some production lines due to not having Parts.
We have an anti-gun Administration and both levers of Congress are controlled by anti-gun Democrats, then there's the BATFE which has and is taking issue at MSR Pistols with Braces, Forced Reset Triggers, Bump-Stocks, and anything else that doesn't look like a Fudd gun, so yea, maybe they see the handwriting on the Wall telling them to stop making a firearm that's headed for trouble, maybe they don't sell, or aren't cost effective, could be the Company executives are woke....I don't know, and doubt you do either.

I obviously have no insight into supply chain issues with the parts the SA are choosing to use for their AR pistols, so maybe they’re having issues getting the rounded “pistol buffer tubes”, who the hell knows. I’d bet it’s more due to political climate and SA not wanting to produce them, but that’s just speculation.

As for you’re statement that if someone is going to get a shorter barrel it’s likely to be called a “pistol barrel” isn’t true. You said it yourself “A barrel is a barrel is a barrel, only the legality of the finished product matters”. So a 10.5” 5.56 barrel isn’t called a “pistol barrel”, it’s just a barrel. If people are opening up google and typing “pistol barrel” it’s just cause they’re knowledge of the subject is lacking. The 10.3” barrel that is used in the MK18 rifle is the exact same barrel as the one Daniel Defense uses in the MK18 pistol. Daniel Defense doesn’t keep a special batch of “pistol barrels” when they’re building the pistol version of a MK18. Just because a barrel is shorter than a 16” barrel doesn’t automatically mean you’ll most likely need a “pistol gas tube”. Most reputable companies that make barrels that are 10.3” and longer all use a carbine length gas system. Most 5.56 AR’s are 10.3” or longer because 5.56 under that barrel length struggles to perform well.

I assume you’re using the term MSR’s for the phrase Modern Sporting Rifles. I don’t use that term at all because it automatically gives the connotation that the firearm is specifically made for sport and not what firearms are really intended for. It just helps perpetuate the political narrative that someone doesn’t need a 30 round magazine to go hunting and that firearms enthusiasts are worried the deer are wearing bullet proof vests, but that’s a different discussion all together.

 

[Will556]

Serious question: there are pistol braces that attach to standard buffer tubes? I thought part of the workaround was that buffer tubes for braces all had bigger outside diameters so that stocks couldn't be fitted onto them.

Nope, they’re the same.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Also how is something going to be a "MSR" Pistol (Modern Sporting Rifle Pistol??????)

 

[FP1201]

I obviously have no insight into supply chain issues with the parts the SA are choosing to use for their AR pistols, so maybe they’re having issues getting the rounded “pistol buffer tubes”, who the hell knows. I’d bet it’s more due to political climate and SA not wanting to produce them, but that’s just speculation.

As for you’re statement that if someone is going to get a shorter barrel it’s likely to be called a “pistol barrel” isn’t true. You said it yourself “A barrel is a barrel is a barrel, only the legality of the finished product matters”. So a 10.5” 5.56 barrel isn’t called a “pistol barrel”, it’s just a barrel. If people are opening up google and typing “pistol barrel” it’s just cause they’re knowledge of the subject is lacking. The 10.3” barrel that is used in the MK18 rifle is the exact same barrel as the one Daniel Defense uses in the MK18 pistol. Daniel Defense doesn’t keep a special batch of “pistol barrels” when they’re building the pistol version of a MK18. Just because a barrel is shorter than a 16” barrel doesn’t automatically mean you’ll most likely need a “pistol gas tube”. Most reputable companies that make barrels that are 10.3” and longer all use a carbine length gas system. Most 5.56 AR’s are 10.3” or longer because 5.56 under that barrel length struggles to perform well.

I assume you’re using the term MSR’s for the phrase Modern Sporting Rifles. I don’t use that term at all because it automatically gives the connotation that the firearm is specifically made for sport and not what firearms are really intended for. It just helps perpetuate the political narrative that someone doesn’t need a 30 round magazine to go hunting and that firearms enthusiasts are worried the deer are wearing bullet proof vests, but that’s a different discussion all together.

I have no more insight to SA's operation than anyone else, and were it not for the original posters report as such wouldn't know. It was reported to me by a close friend that worked at Remington about their shutting down lines due to supply issues, so I'm confident it could happen to others.

If someone came to us and said they wanted a AR-15 (which in itself has become somewhat bastardized a term, hence the "MSR" reference) with a 9" barrel we're going to call it a "Pistol Barrel" The Invoice from the manufacturer will call it a Pistol Barrel, and the Description will invariably list it as a Pistol Barrel, and in accordance with State and Federal Law will only sell it to be used on a Registered Handgun. Now that same upper can obviously be pinned to and become a SBR or "Other" not my problem once the owner has it, but I will extend the warning of doing so.
There is no argument that parts is parts, but those parts do vary and do represent Legal hurdles, and by no means am I suggesting that a pistol barrel is a special part that must be used in an exclusive application, nothing could be farther from the truth. Now don't get me wrong, there ARE variances, and some special applications such as the case with 9mm having a different thread pitch for the muzzle (if threaded) and a different barrel extension and bolt due to being a blow-back design.

MSR isn't a term I use often, but does detract from the common "AR-15" designation that's actually the original model for the Armalite Rifle...I don't like calling a WASR an AK-47 because it really isn't even though it appear to the untrained to be the same thing.
High Cap. for Standard Capacity anyone?

 

[FP1201]

@Edwardteach72
Instead of laughing, how about refuting what I wrote?
Has any of it been a lie?
If it's a simple issue of semantics or misunderstanding then say so.
Must be something with Liberals, when they're loosing an argument they resort to using a laughing emoji rather than embrace their mistake....see it all the time on FB.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Been there done that, you still claim shit like a 9" barrel has to be called a pistol barrel to be used on a pistol..

Told you I'm not going to entertain the nonsense anymore, but I do love the laughs it's giving me

 

[Edwardteach72]

@Edwardteach72
Must be something with Liberals,

Ah yes here comes the name callings and the "must be a liberal, because I'm wrong about what I'm saying and getting butt hurt about it" comment

Inset laughing emoji to hurt your butt even more

 

[FP1201]

Ah yes here comes the name callings and the "must be a liberal, because I'm wrong about what I'm saying and getting butt hurt about it" comment

Inset laughing emoji to hurt your butt even more

"Must be something with Liberals, when they're loosing an argument they resort to using a laughing emoji rather than embrace their mistake....see it all the time on FB."
Did not call name call you, only pointed out something frequently seem when watching a particular mind set.
Bless you're heart, but I've been subject to years of Senior NCO's and Officers that give a whole new dimension to butt-hurt, so I'm pretty sure I can handle snowflakes, just remember there is a Code of Conduct here.
Industry wide a sub-fourteen inch barrel is typically referred to as a Pistol Barrel. That's not of my making, but IS of acceptable terminology.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Old man stomps feet "LiBeRaLs"

Insert yarn emoji

 

[FP1201]

Been there done that, you still claim shit like a 9" barrel has to be called a pistol barrel to be used on a pistol..

Told you I'm not going to entertain the nonsense anymore, but I do love the laughs it's giving me

No where did I say or indicate "...barrel has to be called..." only that they commonly are called such.
See you're getting pissed and keep coming back looking to bolster your argument because its assumptive and wrong, and no one wants to be wrong let alone admit it.

 

[Edwardteach72]

whole
Industry wide a sub-fourteen inch barrel is typically referred to as a Pistol Barrel. That's not of my making, but IS of acceptable terminology.

More made up bull shit that isn't true

just remember there is a Code of Conduct here.

Show me where it says I can't laugh at the shit you write

 

[Edwardteach72]

And for the forum mod/admin don't worry I'm going to let this dude continue to make up and spread wrong information.... I won't continue to post back to any of the nonsense he writes here, I'm not trying to catch another ban.

But I will continue to laugh at anything dumb he writes

Sorry OP looks like you may get more incorrect information.. best of luck

 

[FP1201]

More made up bull shit that isn't true



Show me where it says I can't laugh at the shit you write

It doesn't and you can laugh all you like, just asking to be civil.
Say, didn't I post a bunch of links showing Pistol Barrels? I'm sure if you look on those very same web pages you'll find other barrels less than the 14-1/2" ones that are called "Pistol barrels" or is that bullshit too?

 

[FP1201]

And for the forum mod/admin don't worry I'm going to let this dude continue to make up and spread wrong information.... I won't continue to post back to any of the nonsense he writes here, I'm not trying to catch another ban.

But I will continue to laugh at anything dumb he writes

Sorry OP looks like you may get more incorrect information.. best of luck

You continually post that I'm wrong, but fail to objectively point it out....Now THAT'S dumb.

I will concede that "MSR" which stands for Modern Sporting Rifle is not a Pistol, it's only a generic reference to the platform commonly called AR-15's

 

[Will556]

I have no more insight to SA's operation than anyone else, and were it not for the original posters report as such wouldn't know. It was reported to me by a close friend that worked at Remington about their shutting down lines due to supply issues, so I'm confident it could happen to others.

If someone came to us and said they wanted a AR-15 (which in itself has become somewhat bastardized a term, hence the "MSR" reference) with a 9" barrel we're going to call it a "Pistol Barrel" The Invoice from the manufacturer will call it a Pistol Barrel, and the Description will invariably list it as a Pistol Barrel, and in accordance with State and Federal Law will only sell it to be used on a Registered Handgun. Now that same upper can obviously be pinned to and become a SBR or "Other" not my problem once the owner has it, but I will extend the warning of doing so.
There is no argument that parts is parts, but those parts do vary and do represent Legal hurdles, and by no means am I suggesting that a pistol barrel is a special part that must be used in an exclusive application, nothing could be farther from the truth. Now don't get me wrong, there ARE variances, and some special applications such as the case with 9mm having a different thread pitch for the muzzle (if threaded) and a different barrel extension and bolt due to being a blow-back design.

MSR isn't a term I use often, but does detract from the common "AR-15" designation that's actually the original model for the Armalite Rifle...I don't like calling a WASR an AK-47 because it really isn't even though it appear to the untrained to be the same thing.
High Cap. for Standard Capacity anyone?

With the statement “If someone came to us…” I’m going to assume there’s more than one of you and you’re referencing to some sort of business. So why would you on an invoice purposely put a “pistol barrel” as the name of the part when you could just name it barrel in general like it is? And in who’s description will it be called a pistol barrel? Maybe a description internally that your business decided it wanted to use to name a part? Because when you order barrels from companies, they are not designated as pistol barrels or a rifle barrels, they are just a barrels. Who asks manufacturers to designate barrels on their invoices as “pistol barrels” or “rifle barrels”? And which companies are you buying barrels from that are doing this? Unless you’re referring to whatever your business is deciding to designate in its inventory for whatever reason, I have never seen a barrel come from a company that was blatantly marked or called a “pistol barrel”.

And what about taking a 9” AR15 and pinning makes it an SBR? What is being pinned? Having rifles pinned is to do the complete opposite. It takes a shorter than 16” barrel and permanently affixes a muzzle device to bring it to the legal standard 16” rifle oal. Building a 9” AR pistol and then pinning a muzzle device isn’t going to do anything to it or change it’s legal designation except make it a little longer (possibly in the area of 11.5”-12” range). It would still be a pistol since there are no muzzle devices that I know of that are long enough to pin to a 9” barrel and bring it to a 16” oal (besides a suppressor, but we aren’t talking about those)…and still doing any of these things has nothing to do with making it an SBR.

 

[Will556]

https://criterionbarrels.com/product-category/ar-15/?v=7516fd43adaa

Barrels | Rosco Manufacturing

www.roscomanufacturing.com

AR-15 & AR-10 Barrels | Rifle Barrels | AR Upgrades

Our state of the art AR barrels allow for customization to fit any need. Whether it's a different series, length, or anything in between, our quality is the same.

www.ballisticadvantage.com

Barrels - Centurion Arms

Centurion Arms offers our selection of Midlength, Carbine length, RECCE, Hammer Forged Barrels made with extreme quality control and precision.

centurionarms.com

Daniel Defense AR15 and Bolt Action Rifle Barrels | Daniel Defense

Shop a full line of Daniel Defense Cold Hammer Forged rifle barrels for popular calibers and gas system lengths.

danieldefense.com

Here are links to companies with lists of all their barrels. Out of all of them there is not one barrel that is designated to specifically be installed or used to manufacture an AR15 pistol. The only reference to “pistol” that’s ever made is the reference to the pistol length gas system, which is what each company decided was the length of gas system that barrel needed for it to function properly…not determining what it’s allowed to be manufactured into.

 

[FP1201]

https://criterionbarrels.com/product-category/ar-15/?v=7516fd43adaa

Barrels | Rosco Manufacturing

www.roscomanufacturing.com

AR-15 & AR-10 Barrels | Rifle Barrels | AR Upgrades

Our state of the art AR barrels allow for customization to fit any need. Whether it's a different series, length, or anything in between, our quality is the same.

www.ballisticadvantage.com

Barrels - Centurion Arms

Centurion Arms offers our selection of Midlength, Carbine length, RECCE, Hammer Forged Barrels made with extreme quality control and precision.

centurionarms.com

Daniel Defense AR15 and Bolt Action Rifle Barrels | Daniel Defense

Shop a full line of Daniel Defense Cold Hammer Forged rifle barrels for popular calibers and gas system lengths.

danieldefense.com

Here are links to companies with lists of all their barrels. Out of all of them there is not one barrel that is designated to specifically be installed or used to manufacture an AR15 pistol. The only reference to “pistol” that’s ever made is the reference to the pistol length gas system, which is what each company decided was the length of gas system that barrel needed for it to function properly…not determining what it’s allowed to be manufactured into.

Let's see:
Criterion by length and gas port location
Rosco by length/gas port
Ballistic Advantage calls the very first one a 10" .300 Blackout Pistol Length
Centurion by length and gas location
DD by length and gas port.
The two retailers I cited were by Pistol designation, not cherry picked, just a couple off the cuff.
80% by your findings, 57% of the listings are by Length and not listed as "Pistol" if you include mine, so you win.

So what is the big deal about calling a short length barrel a pistol barrel?
Per ATF there are no size limitations (minimum or maximum) concerning Handgun barrels.
Another random link: Barrel Length: How to Measure It and Why It Matters

There is no issue with permanently affixing a muzzle device to achieve a 16" length, the old XM-177 copies used a, 11-1/2" barrel with a 5-1/2" flash hider to make the 16" minimum, but if you had a receiver titled as a SBR it wouldn't need it, or if the lower was a Handgun (having never been built/sold as a Rifle) that would be ok too.

Stepping back, this whole two page fiasco is over my calling that short barrel ostensibly going on a Handgun a Pistol Barrel, Really not a damned thing to do with the original topic, it's semantics, at worst as bad as people calling Magazines "clips".

How I write a receipt is my business and let's face it in this litigious society where everything is someone else's fault not listing exactly what an item is and the NFA surrounding it could get you just as jammed up. We already had a young man decide "nobody's going to know" and drilled out a Bullet Button then was hunting with the now by definition an AW with a ten round magazine, the DEC Cop arrested him, seized the rifle and the owner proceeded to demand we get him out of it, so it's easy to see where someone would buy a Pistol type upper (short barrel if you prefer) slap it on his carbine stocked lower then cry "they didn't tell me it was illegal" when they get busted.

 

[Will556]

Holy crap, I literally can’t tell if you’re trolling anymore cause it’s gotten to the point that this is completely ridiculous. You can’t possibly think that the Ballistic Advantage barrel that you linked is actually a “Pistol Barrel” and that’s all it should be used for. If you click on the link it even says the barrel can be used for SBR’s, Machine Guns, or Pistols…because BA knows it is just a barrel, that’s it. In the details of the description BA calls it “Modern Series Barrel”. The only reason the word “Pistol” is in there is because it’s stating the length of the gas system that correlates with it. If you look at all the other barrels they all have it based on gas length. So by going with you thought process I guess any BA barrel that has the word “Rifle” in it can not be used for a pistol…that makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever. Again, if the word “Rifle” is being used with a BA barre, it’s only to state that barrel utilizes a rifle length gas system.

 

[Jem45472]

All nonsense. Only thing that makes an ar a "pistol" is registering the lower as a pistol, and removing the stock. Everything else is interchangeable.

 

[Will556]

All nonsense. Only thing that makes an ar a "pistol" is registering the lower as a pistol, and removing the stock. Everything else is interchangeable.

Thank you! Someone else that gets it.

 

[FP1201]

Thank you! Someone else that gets it.

I'm not arguing what you're saying, and just cannot figure out how to say so. The one caveat is NY is not a Class III State, and that's the focus here!
And I'm certain that I posted the same information from other sources.
What's legal in other States isn't a consideration here, after all this IS a NY Gun Forum is it not?

 

[timboy]

 

[dsdmmat]

Well this topic jumped the shark.

so the question was asked and answered. The reason given was Supply issues.

then it devolved into the he said, “I could eat ice cream but I wanted chocolate.” That about sums it up.

I prefer my 223 pistols with 14.5” barrels and mid length gas systems. I prefer my 300 blackout rifles with 16.1” barrels and pistol gas systems. That is how I roll.

 

[Will556]

Well this topic jumped the shark.

so the question was asked and answered. The reason given was Supply issues.

then it devolved into the he said, “I could eat ice cream but I wanted chocolate.” That about sums it up.

I prefer my 223 pistols with 14.5” barrels and mid length gas systems. I prefer my 300 blackout rifles with 16.1” barrels and pistol gas systems. That is how I roll.

But when you build it make sure the barrel you choose states that it’s specifically a 14.5” pistol barrel.

 

[Edwardteach72]

But when you build it make sure the barrel you choose states that it’s specifically a 14.5” pistol barrel.

I'm enjoying some Sorbet right now

 

[FP1201]

But when you build it make sure the barrel you choose states that it’s specifically a 14.5” pistol barrel.

Nah, just make sure its on a Registered Handgun (in NY) or an "Other" or Registered Machinegun, or Registered SBR.

 

[Will556]

Nah, just make sure its on a Registered Handgun (in NY) or an "Other" or Registered Machinegun, or Registered SBR.

Or just a plain rifle, or any kind of build that you want to do. Because it’s just a barrel and by itself does not determine what kind of build you’re going to make.