Jmac00
.475 A&M Magnum
US Supreme Court Agrees to Take up Ban on Gun ‘Bump Stocks’
The high court will review a case challenging the legality of a controversial ATF rule.www.theepochtimes.com
this should be interesting
SCOTUS rules on Bump-stock issue
- Thread starter Jmac00
- Start date
this should be interesting
ArmedCorgi
.475 A&M Magnum
Bump
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
Stock
Acer-m14
20×102mm Vulcan
If they Rule correctly
it would be the END of the ATF making up Rules and changing definitions to back there new Rules ..
they way the ATF is going .. a stick of chewing gum could be a machine gun .. just have to chew it 200 times and stick it in the right
place to cause a malfunction in the gun .. ohhhhhh it went full semi auto .. for 2 shots ..
AKA Auto Key Card and 2 are in jail for that .. ATF was hell bent on making it work to put them in prison
it would be the END of the ATF making up Rules and changing definitions to back there new Rules ..
they way the ATF is going .. a stick of chewing gum could be a machine gun .. just have to chew it 200 times and stick it in the right
place to cause a malfunction in the gun .. ohhhhhh it went full semi auto .. for 2 shots ..
AKA Auto Key Card and 2 are in jail for that .. ATF was hell bent on making it work to put them in prison
spat
.700 Nitro Express
The wish list for this would be for them to say "if the federal agency tasked with interpreting this law can't even say what it bans without changing their mind, then it's obviously unconstitutionally vague."
Then strike down the whole NFA LOL.
Unfortunately I don't believe anyone has made that argument to them, so i don't think they can.
But, it would be fantastic and hilarious.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
There are much more pertinent issues at hand. They will side with this and the domestic restraining orders favorably and then it will be a mess. I’d like to see them take up something more meaningful and broad sweeping than these but I guess seeing how they rule on these will be a good indicator of future cases.
John Stark
.44 mag
When this is adjudicated, the question of whether "accessories" (grips, stocks, mags, braces, etc.) constitute Arms will finally be put to rest (as if it really needed to be in the first place!). The Surpremes are not taking this case to merely say that bump stocks are allowable "accessories." They could have done that simply by sending it back to the lower courts where the ban was already struck down.
Further, this has far reaching possibilities in terms of reigning in a rogue and traitorous gestapo "agency."
IMO this will not be ruled narrowly; it will be Thomas putting an axe to the apple tree from which the poison fruit sprouted. This will be a severe legal blow to the tyrant states who are essentially trying to ban semi-auto weapons "one accessory at a time." If a device made for semi-autos that allows a greater rate of fire than a slower semi-auto rifles without that accessory, it then becomes obvious that not only are the "slower" semi-autos completely legal, but that all of the other stuff like thumb-hole stocks and pistol grips are obviously as well.
Clearly, "feature" bans threaten the RKBA more than just "modern" arms like semi-auto weapons. If bump stocks, which obviously increase rate of fire, can be banned, then so could a pump action, tube mags (some of which are already banned in certain states), and so on.
NY and Commiefornia, and a few states, will likely continue to resist clear SCOTUS rulings and strict scrutiny for awhile, since they have their colective thumbs on most of their law enforcement, but that situation will not pertain forever.
The legal noose is is tightening, and the fascists can't hide behind ambiguity much longer.
What is really needed is for the various groups that have been successfully suing the states is to stop simply going after the retarded state laws in NY and CA and so on, but to take head on the NFA, the GCA, FOPA, and the Brady Bill.
All of those are mostly unconstitutional, and would wipe out the entire encroachments and deprivations that have been placed on our RKBA for nearly a century now.
For example, where in the "history, text and tradition" is there room for the tyrannical road blocks put up by the Feds to slow or stop the flow of arms and their accessories, or the FedCoat crooked FFL scheme that has become nothing but an effort to turn those in the business of producing and selling Arms into snitches and accessories after the fact in violating the civil rights of Americans, where gun registries are maintained (in flagrant disregard to botht the 2A and clear Federal law)? Where in the "history, text and tradition" is there room to make citizens beg permission from government to own arms and the accessories needed for their proper use? To be forced to beg for the Arms through the gatekeepers the FedCoats have roped into their crooked schemes? Permission slips, whether they be a licence to owm/carry or a 4473 "background check" permission slip, are utterly vulgar Infringments. If accessories are Arms needed for the proper function of a gun (they are), then so much more the guns themselves. And if accessories are perectly lawful to own, then so are the Arms they attach to.
If the Surpremes strike down the bump stock ban, a LOT of other dominoes are going to fall right along with it.
And once that happens, lawsuits for real damages are going to flow, and the gungrabbing politicos are going to run for cover.
FYI, the Supremes also took up the case of the NRA, dealing with NY's attempt under FUAC to debank and cancel them, as well as the insurance the NRA used to offer their members in NY.
"The Supreme Court on Friday loaded its docket with two new gun rights cases, one over the federal government’s move to ban bump stocks and the other a dispute over New York state insurance regulators’ alleged hostility toward the National Rifle Association."
www.washingtontimes.com
The NRA is going to win that one too, handily, and if anyone in that organization had any brains, they would sue NY for severe damages, high end damages in the 10s of millions at least, and for punitive damages as well. Indeed, that one ought to be a massive class action.
There is also the case dealing with domestic abusers and their RKBA rights , which will likely greatly clarify the very narrow circumstances in which the Feds, and by extention the states (under the 14th Amended), can prohibit American citizens from excercising their rights under the RKBA, in terms of the "history, text, and tradition." Clearly, if misdemeanor criminals can Keep and Bear, then those without a criminal record are in an even better position to execise their RKBA and demand justice against the hubris that states like NY and Commiefornia are exercising against their own "disorganized" militia.
Those who say they support the RKBA but "didn't care" about "stupid bump stocks accessories" are likely to be eating some crow once the dust on this has settled.
Mark my words.
Further, this has far reaching possibilities in terms of reigning in a rogue and traitorous gestapo "agency."
IMO this will not be ruled narrowly; it will be Thomas putting an axe to the apple tree from which the poison fruit sprouted. This will be a severe legal blow to the tyrant states who are essentially trying to ban semi-auto weapons "one accessory at a time." If a device made for semi-autos that allows a greater rate of fire than a slower semi-auto rifles without that accessory, it then becomes obvious that not only are the "slower" semi-autos completely legal, but that all of the other stuff like thumb-hole stocks and pistol grips are obviously as well.
Clearly, "feature" bans threaten the RKBA more than just "modern" arms like semi-auto weapons. If bump stocks, which obviously increase rate of fire, can be banned, then so could a pump action, tube mags (some of which are already banned in certain states), and so on.
NY and Commiefornia, and a few states, will likely continue to resist clear SCOTUS rulings and strict scrutiny for awhile, since they have their colective thumbs on most of their law enforcement, but that situation will not pertain forever.
The legal noose is is tightening, and the fascists can't hide behind ambiguity much longer.
What is really needed is for the various groups that have been successfully suing the states is to stop simply going after the retarded state laws in NY and CA and so on, but to take head on the NFA, the GCA, FOPA, and the Brady Bill.
All of those are mostly unconstitutional, and would wipe out the entire encroachments and deprivations that have been placed on our RKBA for nearly a century now.
For example, where in the "history, text and tradition" is there room for the tyrannical road blocks put up by the Feds to slow or stop the flow of arms and their accessories, or the FedCoat crooked FFL scheme that has become nothing but an effort to turn those in the business of producing and selling Arms into snitches and accessories after the fact in violating the civil rights of Americans, where gun registries are maintained (in flagrant disregard to botht the 2A and clear Federal law)? Where in the "history, text and tradition" is there room to make citizens beg permission from government to own arms and the accessories needed for their proper use? To be forced to beg for the Arms through the gatekeepers the FedCoats have roped into their crooked schemes? Permission slips, whether they be a licence to owm/carry or a 4473 "background check" permission slip, are utterly vulgar Infringments. If accessories are Arms needed for the proper function of a gun (they are), then so much more the guns themselves. And if accessories are perectly lawful to own, then so are the Arms they attach to.
If the Surpremes strike down the bump stock ban, a LOT of other dominoes are going to fall right along with it.
And once that happens, lawsuits for real damages are going to flow, and the gungrabbing politicos are going to run for cover.
FYI, the Supremes also took up the case of the NRA, dealing with NY's attempt under FUAC to debank and cancel them, as well as the insurance the NRA used to offer their members in NY.
"The Supreme Court on Friday loaded its docket with two new gun rights cases, one over the federal government’s move to ban bump stocks and the other a dispute over New York state insurance regulators’ alleged hostility toward the National Rifle Association."
Supreme Court loads docket with two more gun rights cases
The Supreme Court on Friday filled its docket with two new gun rights cases, one over the federal government’s move to ban bump stocks and the other a dispute over New York state insurance regulators’ alleged hostility toward the National Rifle Association.
www.washingtontimes.com
The NRA is going to win that one too, handily, and if anyone in that organization had any brains, they would sue NY for severe damages, high end damages in the 10s of millions at least, and for punitive damages as well. Indeed, that one ought to be a massive class action.
There is also the case dealing with domestic abusers and their RKBA rights , which will likely greatly clarify the very narrow circumstances in which the Feds, and by extention the states (under the 14th Amended), can prohibit American citizens from excercising their rights under the RKBA, in terms of the "history, text, and tradition." Clearly, if misdemeanor criminals can Keep and Bear, then those without a criminal record are in an even better position to execise their RKBA and demand justice against the hubris that states like NY and Commiefornia are exercising against their own "disorganized" militia.
Those who say they support the RKBA but "didn't care" about "stupid bump stocks accessories" are likely to be eating some crow once the dust on this has settled.
Mark my words.
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SCROTUM is not our friend or, as a a matter of fact, a friend of the republic.
Clarence Thomas is the only Justice with cojones and an encyclopedic knowledge of REAL constitutional law.
Even Alito is a border-line hack.
This is one of the the 2 sticking points I have about voting for Trump again - his 3 SCROTUM appointees are all complete shitweasels, limp-wristers and sellouts.
And he has still never owned-up to the fact that FauXi, Birx and the KOVID Kommie Krew bamboozled him.
He has to publicly attack these people and enunciate his own culpability before he'll get my vote.
And, no, I don't give a fuck what you think about that.
Clarence Thomas is the only Justice with cojones and an encyclopedic knowledge of REAL constitutional law.
Even Alito is a border-line hack.
This is one of the the 2 sticking points I have about voting for Trump again - his 3 SCROTUM appointees are all complete shitweasels, limp-wristers and sellouts.
And he has still never owned-up to the fact that FauXi, Birx and the KOVID Kommie Krew bamboozled him.
He has to publicly attack these people and enunciate his own culpability before he'll get my vote.
And, no, I don't give a fuck what you think about that.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Trump's SCOTUS picks may not be perfect, but they're a hell of a lot better than Hillaries world have been.
Can you imagine the shit show we'd be in if this was her second term.
kev74
20×102mm Vulcan
Trump also had to nominate candidates who would have a chance of getting confirmed by the senate.
Considering what he had to work with, I think he did well.
Considering what he had to work with, I think he did well.
IIRC, that would be called a repeat of the Kansas/Ma-zoo-rah border wars (yes, that's the proper way to say Missouri).
Read "Black Flag - Guerilla Warfare on the Western Border, 1851-1865" by Goodrich.
I've always been on the side of "Bloody Bill" Anderson and Quantrill - fuck Jim Lane and the Kansas "Red Legs" - fucking blue belly sympathizers.
John Stark
.44 mag
BREAKING: Supreme Court Rules 'Bump Stock' Ban Illegal
In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court finds that the federal government cannot use a decades-old ban on machine guns to ban bump stocks.
www.dailysignal.com
----------------------
"In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court has found that the federal government cannot use a decades-old ban on machine guns to ban bump stocks."
“Semiautomatic firearms, which require shooters to reengage the trigger for every shot, are not machineguns. This case asks whether a bump stock—an accessory for a semiautomatic rifle that allows the shooter to rapidly reengage the trigger (and therefore achieve a high rate of fire)—converts the rifle into a ‘machinegun.’ We hold that it does not,” wrote Justice Clarence Thomas."
"Thomas was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Brett Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett, Samuel Alito, and Neil Gorsuch in deciding the ban was illegal."
----------------------------------------
That gives a good path to making other accessories perfectly legal as well, especially other stocks and grips.
Hint hint, UnSafe should be burned to the ground after this ruling. If bump stocks aren't illegal, than neither are the rest of them.
EDIT: had to go with a different link because first one wasn't working.
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John Stark
.44 mag
Bad news is what Alito wrote:
"A Texas man, Michael Cargill, surrendered his bump stocks, but filed a lawsuit challenging the ATF regulations. Cargill argued that the ATF exceeded its authority in defining bump stocks as machine guns.
In a concurring opinion, Alito wrote, “The horrible shooting spree in Las Vegas in 2017 did not change the statutory text or its meaning.”
“That event demonstrated that a semiautomatic rifle with a bump stock can have the same lethal effect as a machine gun, and it thus strengthened the case for amending §5845(b),” he added. “But an event that highlights the need to amend a law does not itself change the law’s meaning.”
Alito then wrote that it was Congress, not a federal agency, that should take action if necessary.
“There is a simple remedy for the disparate treatment of bump stocks and machineguns. Congress can amend the law—and perhaps would have done so already if ATF had stuck with its earlier interpretation. Now that the situation is clear, Congress can act,” he continued."
So Alito is saying that the GCA can be revisited by Congress to amend it and make bump stocks illegal.
But how can they be illegal if they are factually NOT machineguns?
Another Dem admin with a Congressional majority, and those stocks and others will be perma-banned.
WTF?
This should have been a chance for SCOTUS to show some balls and make it clear that the RKBA CANNOT be restricted by alphabet agencies OR fucking Congress and their fucking tyrannical laws against the RKBA.
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED you spineless wonks.
What a ridiculous bunch of bullshit this once free nation is living under. Lies upon lies.
EDIT: Remember, it was Trump who first ordered ATF that bump stocks ought to be banned in the first place!
Let the whining begin.
"A Texas man, Michael Cargill, surrendered his bump stocks, but filed a lawsuit challenging the ATF regulations. Cargill argued that the ATF exceeded its authority in defining bump stocks as machine guns.
In a concurring opinion, Alito wrote, “The horrible shooting spree in Las Vegas in 2017 did not change the statutory text or its meaning.”
“That event demonstrated that a semiautomatic rifle with a bump stock can have the same lethal effect as a machine gun, and it thus strengthened the case for amending §5845(b),” he added. “But an event that highlights the need to amend a law does not itself change the law’s meaning.”
Alito then wrote that it was Congress, not a federal agency, that should take action if necessary.
“There is a simple remedy for the disparate treatment of bump stocks and machineguns. Congress can amend the law—and perhaps would have done so already if ATF had stuck with its earlier interpretation. Now that the situation is clear, Congress can act,” he continued."
So Alito is saying that the GCA can be revisited by Congress to amend it and make bump stocks illegal.
But how can they be illegal if they are factually NOT machineguns?
Another Dem admin with a Congressional majority, and those stocks and others will be perma-banned.
WTF?
This should have been a chance for SCOTUS to show some balls and make it clear that the RKBA CANNOT be restricted by alphabet agencies OR fucking Congress and their fucking tyrannical laws against the RKBA.
SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED you spineless wonks.
What a ridiculous bunch of bullshit this once free nation is living under. Lies upon lies.
EDIT: Remember, it was Trump who first ordered ATF that bump stocks ought to be banned in the first place!
Let the whining begin.
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livingston
20×102mm Vulcan
“Congress’s definition of ‘machinegun’ encompasses bump stocks just as naturally as M16s,” wrote Sotomayor. “Just like a person can shoot ‘automatically more than one shot’ with an M16 through a ‘single function of the trigger’ if he maintains continuous backward pressure on the trigger, he can do the
same with a bump-stock-equipped semiautomatic rifle if he maintains forward pressure on the gun.”
She warned that the Supreme Court’s ruling would have “deadly consequences.”
“Bump stocks were designed to skirt the law and mimic automatic fire. There is no reason anyone should be able to easily convert a weapon to fire 800 rounds per minute. Machine guns don’t belong in our communities,” Everytown posted.
same with a bump-stock-equipped semiautomatic rifle if he maintains forward pressure on the gun.”
She warned that the Supreme Court’s ruling would have “deadly consequences.”
“Bump stocks were designed to skirt the law and mimic automatic fire. There is no reason anyone should be able to easily convert a weapon to fire 800 rounds per minute. Machine guns don’t belong in our communities,” Everytown posted.
So this wouldn't eliminate any law in NY against bumpstocks since it only says "ATF can't make up new law".
Granted, the law is un-Constitutionally vague (for not defining an acceptable rate of fire), un-Constitutional infringement of 2A, and complete B.S. (like most NY laws).
But they are still outlawed in NY.
There is no reason anyone should be able to spout their un-American b.s. all over the media without facing backlash or return comments. Everytown does not belong in our communities.
Granted, the law is un-Constitutionally vague (for not defining an acceptable rate of fire), un-Constitutional infringement of 2A, and complete B.S. (like most NY laws).
But they are still outlawed in NY.
About as permanent as mag-locks have to be per NYS law. ie: all it would take is another conservative admin to wipe it from the books.
There is no reason anyone should be able to spout their un-American b.s. all over the media without facing backlash or return comments. Everytown does not belong in our communities.
John Stark
.44 mag
Think about this carefully.
SCOTUS has left open the very real possibility that something that is NOT an automatic weapon under the NFA or the GCA can magically and suddenly be reclassified and prohibited by Congress passing a law that Infringes the RKBA, in direct violation of not only the case handed down by the Court, but in contradiction to what the NFA and GCA laws clearly define as "allowed" vs. "restricted."
Alito is way off base on this. Definitions in law matter.
Anyone who thinks that SCOTUS giving the green light to Congress to amend laws that ALREADY Infringer on our RKBA to prohibit lawful arms (we're talking rifles & accessories here, not nuclear missiles or even rocket launchers) is way out there in lala land.
This is SCOTUS telling Congress that they can Infringe harder.
Suck it Alito , you fucking bastard.
SCOTUS has left open the very real possibility that something that is NOT an automatic weapon under the NFA or the GCA can magically and suddenly be reclassified and prohibited by Congress passing a law that Infringes the RKBA, in direct violation of not only the case handed down by the Court, but in contradiction to what the NFA and GCA laws clearly define as "allowed" vs. "restricted."
Alito is way off base on this. Definitions in law matter.
Anyone who thinks that SCOTUS giving the green light to Congress to amend laws that ALREADY Infringer on our RKBA to prohibit lawful arms (we're talking rifles & accessories here, not nuclear missiles or even rocket launchers) is way out there in lala land.
This is SCOTUS telling Congress that they can Infringe harder.
Suck it Alito , you fucking bastard.
John Stark
.44 mag
I understand your point, but the RKBA ought not be a ping pong ball. No offense intended toward you.
Bare minumum (and I mean really bare minimum), practically all infantry weapons that can be carried on your person are lawful in the United States.
I am not saying that is the limit, but the floor, the starting point.
The RKBA is Federal law. If the assholes want to limit or get rid of it, the proper recourse would be a Constitutional Amendment, not a piddly act of Congress
Alito is telling Congress to "go ahead, Infringe" under the NFA and GCA. "Just give ATF some guidance and its all good"
Fuck that.
John Stark
.44 mag
My apologies, I meant to remark on this too.
Given that we're dealing with Federal law, I believe you are mistaken on the fact that this ruling, at least for now, un-bans bump stocks in NY. Its a federal ruling, and ATF has its ass swinging in the breeze at this point.
As a practical matter, obviously NY is going to make sure it stays banned here like everything else.
But strictly according to this ruling and for however long it stands, litigants can now go after NY if they refuse to allow them to sell bump stocks, and refuse NYers the Right to own and enjoy them.
This is certainly Federal law at this point that overrules the States, for now.
Edited for grammar.
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spat
.700 Nitro Express
The NFA is just a law.
And Alito is saying that if the NFA is going to be modified, congress has to do it, the ATF can't just make it's own law.
That is a good ruling.
He isn't saying that congress *can* pass a las banning bump stocks, just that the are the only ones who should even be able try to craft something that addresses them.
The ATF's only job is to enforce the law as written, not to modify it, no matter how badly they think it needs modification.
The current law says one shot per trigger pull, and even if a device lets you pull the trigger 20 times per second, that doesn't change the definition in the law, and it's not the executive branches place to "fix" that.
Cavalry
.308 Win
I like where you are going with this, but it should be all weapons, and yes to the ridiculous extreme F15's, live gun tanks, and nuclear weapons. Privateers existed and were perfectly acceptable at the dawn of this country and were armed at the same level as any government Navy.
Saltwater60
20×102mm Vulcan
Much bigger fish to fry. It’s a win for the 2a but a stupid and unstrategic one at this time. It doesn’t impact most gun owners but glad to see it reign in the rogue state agencies so in that it’s a huge victory. Other cases should have been taken up by the Supreme Court first.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
PDF
This is not the great news that people possibly think it is.
Time will tell.
Time will tell.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
Bump stocks are essentially a novelty item that, as the Las Vegas shooting reportedly showed us, can be misused to great harm.
What will hopefully be useful to many of us in the 2A community, and others, is if it successfully reigns in the deep state, and the various agencies from writing and rewriting laws as they see fit, and violating our rights.
We should know more in that respect within this month, as SCOTUS is set to rule on the Chevron Doctrine (and is likely to strike it down) which gets used by countless agencies to take poorly written or defined laws and twist them to suit what they want, - against our rights.
What will hopefully be useful to many of us in the 2A community, and others, is if it successfully reigns in the deep state, and the various agencies from writing and rewriting laws as they see fit, and violating our rights.
We should know more in that respect within this month, as SCOTUS is set to rule on the Chevron Doctrine (and is likely to strike it down) which gets used by countless agencies to take poorly written or defined laws and twist them to suit what they want, - against our rights.
Uzi
.308 Win
But daddy Trump told us we shouldn't have those dangerous bump stocks? I am going to play it safe and say they should still be banned if daddy says they should be banned.
BTW......
The shooter(s) in Las Vegas did not use Bump Stocks....
The shooter(s) in Las Vegas did not use Bump Stocks....
RedBreast21
6.5 Creedmoor
The simple majority opinion should have simply been stated, that only the People and Congress through the Constitutional Process, has the authority to change the Bill of Rights and no one else. Nothing more needs to be said. It's a all just a personal opinion and we all know that opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. 
spat
.700 Nitro Express
If he had, the body count probably would have been lower.
They are a novelty gimmick with no practical value.
A gimmick that the government has no legitimate authority to regulate, but a gimmick none the less.
The ban on them has about the same utility as a ban on chainsaw bayonets would have.
Well, I like the ruling... Expecting SCOTUS to take giant leaps and correct ALL the wrongs in one fell swoop just isn't realistic. But... That said...
The Chevron Ruling can't come quick enough, and this pretty much tells the tale of the tape that is yet to come! And that is a good thing for sure! Because under Executive Action, these acronym agencies have run amok, mimicking and replacing Congress and THAT is a problem! Huge problem... So scale it back, take back powers seized by the Executive to Embolden acronym agencies to do it's bidding bypassing Congress! Make it happen already! It's going to be fun to watch Congress lose their collective heads having to actually work for a living and write laws and not allow political hacks and minions to create quasi laws... All bullshit of course. All bypassing whether or not any law regarding bumstocks or otherwise is legal (2A). This is all about drawing back in powers taken by the Executive that were not bestowed upon it by the Constitution! The subversion and bastardization of that document has been too much lately. Enough!
Anyways, back to our regular programming...
The Chevron Ruling can't come quick enough, and this pretty much tells the tale of the tape that is yet to come! And that is a good thing for sure! Because under Executive Action, these acronym agencies have run amok, mimicking and replacing Congress and THAT is a problem! Huge problem... So scale it back, take back powers seized by the Executive to Embolden acronym agencies to do it's bidding bypassing Congress! Make it happen already! It's going to be fun to watch Congress lose their collective heads having to actually work for a living and write laws and not allow political hacks and minions to create quasi laws... All bullshit of course. All bypassing whether or not any law regarding bumstocks or otherwise is legal (2A). This is all about drawing back in powers taken by the Executive that were not bestowed upon it by the Constitution! The subversion and bastardization of that document has been too much lately. Enough!
Anyways, back to our regular programming...