Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Hmm. Velocity? Who knew? I thought grain was what mattered?
armor vs ammo - known facts
- Thread starter meketrefe
- Start date
Lol yeah your not wearing a 1/2" plate. A 1/4" inch ar500 plate is gonna stop a lot of rounds though. Ar500 is so hard that when rounds go through they don't go through the plate as much a pop a whole through. Like a whole puncher through paper. Look at the whole in the video that's bigger than a .22 whole. A 50 bmg usually cracks the plate when it goes through.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
What is AR680? Not familiar with those plates nor how the brinell 680 can be achieved to be consistent.... or perhaps marketing BS.
I will watch it tomorrow (I am tired) but I guess one spending money on plates should look into a proven one
of good quality. I know AR500 make one of 3/8 500 they call III+ although not sure there is official NIJ classification
that is one of the problems with the makers popping everywhere.
We know this:
A) A quality plate for rifle will stop any 223 and 308 fmjs too.
B) if the plate requires a bolt action or hiper velocity varmints from bolt action and stay 7 yards or so form the target I am not too worried.
If speed was the factor then the M855 would have failed also in the 3/8 hot rolled steel but it didn't. The M193 failed and that was at a more
realistic range with a popular carbine.
If the brake speed for that plate is lets say 3150 fps then chances are will never break with the average rifle and
average range. I don't see a lot of folks running around with 22" bolt action for CQB.
carpediem
.338 Win Mag
At a certain point, grains do matter. .50 BMG isn't moving at 4000 fps but will wreck body armor. The secret is energy transfer. High mass at moderate speed penetrates as does low mass at high speed.Hmm. Velocity? Who knew? I thought grain was what mattered?
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Hmm. Velocity? Who knew? I thought grain was what mattered?
There you go Savage 11 Bench rest for CQB! lol
Too bad the round is not good for much more other than varmints. What is the break speed?
At this rate we will reach the conclusion that we need a swift as a service cartrige or just stick to the BMG AR!
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I've said before that grain does matter to a point. You need both. You need a certain amount of grain and once that's met, velocity does the rest.
If you meet the grain requirements but the velocity is lacking, you get nothing. And vice versa.
In the case of the 50 BMG, the grain is met and also the velocity. If you take that 50 BMG and lower the velocity, it does nothing.
My argument is for the same caliber or calibers that are close to one another. There is no way adding more grain to a .223 will increase the penetration on plates that it cannot penetrate regularly. Add velocity to it by lowering the grain or increasing the barrel length and well....
If you meet the grain requirements but the velocity is lacking, you get nothing. And vice versa.
In the case of the 50 BMG, the grain is met and also the velocity. If you take that 50 BMG and lower the velocity, it does nothing.
My argument is for the same caliber or calibers that are close to one another. There is no way adding more grain to a .223 will increase the penetration on plates that it cannot penetrate regularly. Add velocity to it by lowering the grain or increasing the barrel length and well....
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
So are you now back to saying that speed is a factor like you do with pistol rounds by always bringing up the SIG?
Acer-m14
.950 JDJ
very interesting ... but speed kills ,, even in auto racing ..
getting wacked with a 308 or 06 at 50 yrds and the plate stops it you in for a bruising and on the ground gasping for air i would believe ..
.. getting wacked with a 308 or 06 at 50 yrds and the plate stops it you in for a bruising and on the ground gasping for air i would believe ..
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Will,
I always say speed matters, of course it matters. Flat shooting, penetration, ...who doesn't like this...
The thing is that how much far away from 7ft and w/o a bolt action I have to fall bellow the break speed.
I don't think that a shorter carbine will penetrate even the cheaper type III at 50 yards. Will not get to 3200 not even 3100fps.
That is why the AP rounds were created so I don't have to rely so much on speed and also will extend the range.
I am thinking anyone worried about really hard stuff will go for AP or at least M885A1 enhance round.
And for defense will take a certified III+ armor.
For most common hard barrier including the hardest car metal, hot rolled steel and glass the 62gr are perfect
specially at the average distance like 50 yards, 100 yards etc..
To be fair, while not at 4,000 fps .50 BMG is moving out there at up to 3000+ fps. Not too far of from 55gr 5.56. It's still only good against unarmored or very lightly armored targets though.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
2800 fps with a mid grain bullet.
What's the miltary ball weight? I was pretty sure NATO spec .50 was at 3,000fps.
spat
.700 Nitro Express
Not if you figure SLAP. 4000fps with a 360gr 30cal penetrator... Still only good for 3/4" armor though.
M903 slap .50bmg
I wonder what the BC of that penetrator is. 360gr 30 cal is some massive SD, maybe with a bit more of a boat tail to it it would retain velocity very well....
Of course the design condition of that thing is light armor at 1500yds, so.....
It's funny what a huge disconnect there is between the civilian realm, where the almighty .50 Cal reigns supreme and the military one where it's a spitwad.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
A
Alright then. Makes sense since Browning scaled up the 30-06 for the 50 BMG design, so it's fitting it would match the muzzle velocity.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
308 vs type III+ body armor...
Uzi
.308 Win
At the end of the day, what is the realistic application you need to blow through heavy rated body armor? Is it for extreme SHTF or something else? Can someone explain to me hypothetical scenarios they could foresee being in and why?
Academic discussion mostly. For a civilian brute force via heavy calibers is whats available. Or explosives.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Shtf and Stormtroopers.
Uzi
.308 Win
I'm disappointed. I was hoping at least you would come up with a cool scenario or something.
The scenario is obvious. Armored Alphabet goons are kicking in your door.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
How's this one? The Chinese invade, take over, and are going door to door imprisoning gun owners.
Uzi
.308 Win
Okay, so let's say that happens. Those alphabet goons and Chinese are kicking in your front door, do you take your scoped long barreled high velocity rifle that will blow right through pretty much any body armor even at a long distance, or will you take a lighter more ergonomic AR-15 with a red dot? The choice needs to be made quickly though, because they have already made it to the stairs. I'm going to bet regardless of their body armor, the better option would be something capable of close quarters. Their legs, arms, neck and face probably won't stop any 5.56 rounds. Sitting as a sniper in your bedroom window or on top of your roof probably won't work out too well. I can foresee avoiding firefights and moving quickly away and doing it often.
Here is the scenario.
carpediem
.338 Win Mag
And as you may recall Will, that was my question originally. A wildcat based of the .308 that has a high enough velocity to provide regular penetration on a class III+ .25 thick AR500 or AR550 plate. I was looking for compatibility with an AR10 style rifle. Perhaps a .308 necked down to .223 pushing a .55 grain projectile? There was no scenario envisioned, just a thought I had and if anyone had fooled around with a wildcat round like that.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
That would be interesting. 4000 fps roundabouts?
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I remember.... the M80 is a very powerful round but when presented with the latest armor then
the M80A1 will do it w/o problems.
since will started posted youtubes I found this guy testing the M80A1.
This is an EPR not AP round.