Deadly force

[Criticalt]

I have read all of penal code 35 and I believe I know the answer, but, of course, this is NYS.

Two days ago my girlfriend and I were visiting my parents in a urban town.
We were walking down a long road when we heard a loud truck coming behind us.
The Dodge truck was literally driving with its tires on the gravel on the side of the road.
He got about 50 feet from us and we had to get out of the way, he WOULD have hit us.
As hes going by, the guy yells something to the effect of, "I wasnt going to hit you".
I put my hand up like a holy crap kinda thing.
By this time he was turning left at a stop sign about 50 yards past us.
He slams the truck in reverse, squealing the tires.
He jumps out of the truck very, very angry and yells, "flick me off again and watch what happens, Ill fucking kill you!!"
I have my GF and our 15 pound Chihuahua mix dog with me, so instead of doing the natural thing like flicking him off, I just laughed.
He said, "watch your back motherfucker".
I, again, just laughed.
This guy was in his 20s and about 250 pounds....and not fat.
Im a 230 pound former Ranger but im 46 years old so it would be a seriously violent fight if need be.
The thing is, my GF and dog may not be able to get away if this guy decided to attack us. He was seriously road raged, and spitting mad for some reason.
I keep hearing people say that a bad guy must have a weapon to use deadly force in NYS. I cant find that in ANY law. Who knows what this guy would do to my family if he knocked me out.
I havent been in a fight in 25 years but I have no fear of a punk big mouth, but my GF and dogs are my life.
Now if this guy just ran at us, as angry as he was, what do I do?
I had my Shield 9mm but was hesitant to think about deadly force against an unarmed guy.
Before you answer, picture a 250 pound dude spitting mad, veins popping and beat red.

 

[Robin]

Well, In a situation where he is coming at me (Us), And I have a side arm? I put every ounce of my buck fifty pound, arthritic, old man body into yelling as deep and loud as I can, "Get down on the ground MF or you get a new dick hole right between the running lights."
Robin

 

[UltraT]

Some people become fucking psychopaths when they're driving, I don't understand it.

 

[Day444]

He threatened you with physical harm, he was large enough and close enough to seriously hurt or kill you. At that point your life was in immediate danger.


The determination of whether a person REASONABLY BELIEVES deadly physical force to be necessary to defend himself/herself [or someone else] from what he/she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force by another individual requires the application of a two-part test.

That test applies to this case in the following way:

First, the defendant must have actually believed that (specify) was using or was about to use deadly physical force against him/her [or someone else], and that the defendant’s own use of deadly physical force was necessary to defend himself/herself from it; and

Second, a “reasonable person” in the defendant’s position, knowing what the defendant knew and being in the same circumstances, would have had those same beliefs.

 

[Deplorable Me]

Guy sounds crazier than a democrat day after the election. My workplace is loaded with these ultra angry nuts who flap at the arms and mouth. They have titles like doctor, director, assistant vice president. Some of them are serious ignoramus asstards. They think they have power, but I refuse to engage them during their illusions and temper tantrums. That's the best way to steal their imaginary power. Laughing at them is construed as being confrontational. I become the grey man with the stone cold, keep em guessing face. Total focus. It may take a few minutes but they expend all their misplaced energy, responding only refuels them.

Was the guy crazy, jacked on alcohol or drugs? Who knows, your situation was 100x more serious with the truck handy as a potential weapon. I'd of put the nearest mother truck stopping big ass tree or object between me and him. Make his primary oversized weapon work against him. Head onto a porch (high ground) and start knocking on doors. Distance and objects. Screw his gun, vehicle was a weapon too, the momentum could carry through your shots. The objective is to survive, not win. You and your girlfriend both survive. You have to take the lead in evacuating her.

 

[S&W Fan]

Deadly force under any circumstances is going to get you into handcuffs in this state. However, the old adage comes to mind if it is truely necessary. " It's better to be judged by 12 than it is to be carried by 6"
Were I in your situation I would have -1, put some distance between you and the belligerent offender. Distance can give you more time to react if necessary.
2- even though it sounded obvious that reasoning of any kind was probably moot, I would have tried to diffuse the confrontation.
As you said, It wasn't just you that you had to worry about.

 

[S&W Fan]

Some people become fucking psychopaths when they're driving, I don't understand it.

It sounds like it might have been more" roids" rage rather than "road"
rage.

 

[dubleuhb]

The fact that HE came back to initiate or provoke the situation when he had the ability to just move along and take his anger elsewhere might be close to crossing the line.
Had he gotten out of the vehicle and escalated, get to close and the line would have been crossed IMHO.
Like you said, who knows what would have happened had you let him get in a punch or two and render you down and out. You have more than yourself to think about.

He may have stole you dog!

 

[freddy]

He slams the truck in reverse, squealing the tires.
He jumps out of the truck very, very angry and yells, "flick me off again and watch what happens, Ill fucking kill you!!"

How many yards between you and the arsehole at this point?

 

[spat]

I have read all of penal code 35 and I believe I know the answer, but, of course, this is NYS.

Two days ago my girlfriend and I were visiting my parents in a urban town.
We were walking down a long road when we heard a loud truck coming behind us.
The Dodge truck was literally driving with its tires on the gravel on the side of the road.
He got about 50 feet from us and we had to get out of the way, he WOULD have hit us.
As hes going by, the guy yells something to the effect of, "I wasnt going to hit you".
I put my hand up like a holy crap kinda thing.
By this time he was turning left at a stop sign about 50 yards past us.
He slams the truck in reverse, squealing the tires.
He jumps out of the truck very, very angry and yells, "flick me off again and watch what happens, Ill fucking kill you!!"
I have my GF and our 15 pound Chihuahua mix dog with me, so instead of doing the natural thing like flicking him off, I just laughed.
He said, "watch your back motherfucker".
I, again, just laughed.
This guy was in his 20s and about 250 pounds....and not fat.
Im a 230 pound former Ranger but im 46 years old so it would be a seriously violent fight if need be.
The thing is, my GF and dog may not be able to get away if this guy decided to attack us. He was seriously road raged, and spitting mad for some reason.
I keep hearing people say that a bad guy must have a weapon to use deadly force in NYS. I cant find that in ANY law. Who knows what this guy would do to my family if he knocked me out.
I havent been in a fight in 25 years but I have no fear of a punk big mouth, but my GF and dogs are my life.
Now if this guy just ran at us, as angry as he was, what do I do?
I had my Shield 9mm but was hesitant to think about deadly force against an unarmed guy.
Before you answer, picture a 250 pound dude spitting mad, veins popping and beat red.

Justifying deadly force in that circumstance would be hard. There isnt a great disparity of force between you and the attacker, and technically you have superior numbers

Assuming you can't retreat, ideally, in such a situation I would have prepared to engage him hand to hand secure in the knowledge that if he beat me and came after my wife she would have plenty of justification to shoot him. She would have her hands full with the dogs though, ours are not 12lb.

 

[Bob]

You described the situation reasonably well. But we don't know what was running through your mind at the time, nor do we know your physical abilities or those of your girlfriend. When someone asks me the "what if" questions, I reply with this: You need to ask yourself "Am I or is someone I love going to get seriously injured or killed if I don't do something RIGHT NOW?"

If the answer is no, you're going to have a hard time articulating use of deadly physical force in a courtroom.
If the answer is yes, You're probably ok.

 

[Marine Cpl]

If you would have shot him like said before, you would have been arrested but probably vindicated after it was determined that he stopped his truck and ran at you. Your life was in danger.

 

[MilesTeg]

I wish you or our your wife had taken a picture with him and the license plate. If you had gotten that I would have reported it to the police. If someone is that much of a jerk he deserves getting harassed by the cops.

For your original question if he had rushed my I probably would have drawn and seen where it went from there. I would like to say I would have traded a few blows then drawn if need be, but I've gotten soft in my desk job and it wouldn't have turned out well for me.

Overall you were in a terrible situation and about the best outcome could have happened, happened so you have that. Overall I think I would have kept my space and had the wife calling the athuorties. Both of these would have been critical to do if the situation escleated. The space would give yourself needed reaction time. The call to 911 would have shown your concern for you life and also bring back up.

I hope in my rambling I made some sort of sense.

 

[spat]

You described the situation reasonably well. But we don't know what was running through your mind at the time, nor do we know your physical abilities or those of your girlfriend. When someone asks me the "what if" questions, I reply with this: You need to ask yourself "Am I or is someone I love going to get seriously injured or killed if I don't do something RIGHT NOW?"

If the answer is no, you're going to have a hard time articulating use of deadly physical force in a courtroom.
If the answer is yes, You're probably ok.

If the guy had a tire iron or something then you would probably be ok, but if he was bare handed, I'd rather take a physical beating than the legal mess that would undoubtedly ensue.

 

[Criticalt]

Guy sounds crazier than a democrat day after the election. My workplace is loaded with these ultra angry nuts who flap at the arms and mouth. They have titles like doctor, director, assistant vice president. Some of them are serious ignoramus asstards. They think they have power, but I refuse to engage them during their illusions and temper tantrums. That's the best way to steal their imaginary power. Laughing at them is construed as being confrontational. I become the grey man with the stone cold, keep em guessing face. Total focus. It may take a few minutes but they expend all their misplaced energy, responding only refuels them.

Was the guy crazy, jacked on alcohol or drugs? Who knows, your situation was 100x more serious with the truck handy as a potential weapon. I'd of put the nearest mother truck stopping big ass tree or object between me and him. Make his primary oversized weapon work against him. Head onto a porch (high ground) and start knocking on doors. Distance and objects. Screw his gun, vehicle was a weapon too, the momentum could carry through your shots. The objective is to survive, not win. You and your girlfriend both survive. You have to take the lead in evacuating her.

This was no "democrat after election day", he was a good ol' boy, just like me.
He had two giant American flags flying from his truck bed, you know these guys. He was looking for a fight. He had no shirt, a ball hat, blue jeans and work boots on. When I say an "urban" area, this town has maybe 400 residents. That is far more than where I live in the woods. There were no houses, just big ditches and fields. There are 4 houses on this 1/2 mile road, that's urban around here.
Guys around here fight, thats just what they do. A couple years ago a guy was beat to death outside a bar, the killer was never caught.
He was 50 yards away or so and there was noplace to hide from him if he decided to get in his truck to kill us or even run after us.
My plan was that if he ran to us, still enraged, I would try to put him down with voice commands and my gun.
The big problem I saw is that this isnt the movies. There are alot of "you gotta kill me" guys around here.
I could not risk our welfare.
Im no stranger to deaing with conflict, or bad guys.
I served 3 combat tours in the valleys of Afganistan from 2002-2006.
The point of my post was the "the bad guy has to have a weapon" thing I hear from alot of so called "experts" in NYS gun laws. I found that nowhere.
If he would have taken out a bat or tire iron, I wouldnt have even posted.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

Not trying to Monday morning QB it. I think my inclination would have been to tell my GF to dial 911 while backing up a bit, and drawing my EDC but keeping it concealed if possible. As soon as she was talking to them, I would have started screaming at him (so it would be recorded on the 911 call) to "stop threatening us, and to back the fuck off before I pull my firearm...". And then I would have pulled it out facing him. And if he kept advancing on you, I would have begun using him for target practice.

Edit: One more thing, - he who calls 911 first is automatically the complainant, and the other person is the respondent. You don't want to be the respondent...

 

[Criticalt]

I wish you or our your wife had taken a picture with him and the license plate. If you had gotten that I would have reported it to the police. If someone is that much of a jerk he deserves getting harassed by the cops.

For your original question if he had rushed my I probably would have drawn and seen where it went from there. I would like to say I would have traded a few blows then drawn if need be, but I've gotten soft in my desk job and it wouldn't have turned out well for me.

Overall you were in a terrible situation and about the best outcome could have happened, happened so you have that. Overall I think I would have kept my space and had the wife calling the athuorties. Both of these would have been critical to do if the situation escleated. The space would give yourself needed reaction time. The call to 911 would have shown your concern for you life and also bring back up.

I hope in my rambling I made some sort of sense.

All of this went through our heads right after the confrontation. Taking pictures, license plate, all that.
It happened fast and my concern was safety.
Another worry is, how crazy is this guy?
I walk that road several times a week when in town. I see this guy all the time hauling ass with his big flags flying on this same road. Our paths will cross again.
My family lives on this road, I have no choice.

 

[Criticalt]

How many yards between you and the arsehole at this point?

About 50 yards.
We had noplace to go and my GF and tiny dog arent being left behind.
I was about 400 yards from the closest house.

 

[Criticalt]

Justifying deadly force in that circumstance would be hard. There isnt a great disparity of force between you and the attacker, and technically you have superior numbers

Assuming you can't retreat, ideally, in such a situation I would have prepared to engage him hand to hand secure in the knowledge that if he beat me and came after my wife she would have plenty of justification to shoot him. She would have her hands full with the dogs though, ours are not 12lb.

Not really
my 120 pound GF would die with one punch probably.
The 15 pound Chihuahua is worthless.
And I will NOT let them die.

 

[spat]

Not trying to Monday morning QB it. I think my inclination would have been to tell my GF to dial 911 while backing up a bit, and drawing my EDC but keeping it concealed if possible. As soon as she was talking to them, I would have started screaming at him (so it would be recorded on the 911 call) to "stop threatening us, and to back the fuck off before I pull my firearm...". And then I would have pulled it. And if he kept advancing on you, I would have begun using him for target practice.

+1 for having the girlfriend call 911, but any attempt to invoke the firearm before you are actually justified in firing is a bad call IMHO, both tactically and legally. Any delay after you are justified is dangerous, since you are by definition in imminent danger.

 

[spat]

Not really
my 120 pound GF would die with one punch probably.
The 15 pound Chihuahua is worthless.
And I will NOT let them die.

In that circumstance, losing is not an option. The legal justification is going to be very difficult, but you do what you have to do.

I'd suggest getting the girlfriend a permit and some training, so that you don't find yourself in a similar situation in the future.

 

[Criticalt]

If the guy had a tire iron or something then you would probably be ok, but if he was bare handed, I'd rather take a physical beating than the legal mess that would undoubtedly ensue.

Im not really concerned so much about that.
We live in a very pro gun area, with pro self defense judges and DAs.
A few years ago a known drug dealer used a shotgun and killed a guy trying to rob him, no charges filed.

 

[Bob]

The point of my post was the "the bad guy has to have a weapon" thing I hear from alot of so called "experts" in NYS gun laws. I found that nowhere.

That's because it's not there. Deadly Physical Force, actual or threatened, need not require a weapon.

If Andre the Giant (God rest his soul) had Lady Gaga by the neck and was making threatening remarks, aside from doing the world a favor, it could be very clearly articulated that he had the ability and opportunity to cause her death. The same could be argued if it was one of you, surrounded by a group of ten ninjas.

You really need to be able to articulate that the attacker had the ability to cause serious physical injury or death, had the opportunity to carry out the action, that there was a real risk of serious physical injury or death, and that there was really no other choice than to employ deadly physical force. The attacker having a weapon simply makes it easier to articulate those conditions to a jury.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

+1 for having the girlfriend call 911, but any attempt to invoke the firearm before you are actually justified in firing is a bad call IMHO, both tactically and legally. Any delay after you are justified is dangerous, since you are by definition in imminent danger.

IDK, - I think that it demonstrates that you are trying to deescalate the situation, rather than simply pulling your firearm and blasting away. To me it would also demonstrate that you are attempting to retreat, and only using deadly force as a matter of last resort.

 

[spat]

That's because it's not there. Deadly Physical Force, actual or threatened, need not require a weapon.

If Andre the Giant (God rest his soul) had Lady Gaga by the neck and was making threatening remarks, aside from doing the world a favor, it could be very clearly articulated that he had the ability and opportunity to cause her death. The same could be argued if it was one of you, surrounded by a group of ten ninjas.

You really need to be able to articulate that the attacker had the ability to cause serious physical injury or death, had the opportunity to carry out the action, that there was a real risk of serious physical injury or death, and that there was really no other choice than to employ deadly physical force. The attacker having a weapon simply makes it easier to articulate those conditions to a jury.

You need a disparity of force also. Many people can cause serious injury with their bare hands, but unless there is a disparity of force between you and your attacker, you're still in trouble legally.

 

[spat]

IDK, - I think that it demonstrates that you are trying to deescalate the situation, rather than simply pulling your firearm and blasting away. To me it would also demonstrate that you are attempting to retreat, and only using deadly force as a matter of last resort.

It does, but it's also brandishing. Any attempt to invoke the firearm before you are justified in shooting is a crime.

It's possible that it could still be the best option though, brandishing is a lesser charge than shooting the guy, but it would still be a bad plan.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It does, but it's also brandishing. Any attempt to invoke the firearm before you are justified in shooting is a crime.

It's possible that it could still be the best option though, brandishing is a lesser charge than shooting the guy, but it would still be a bad plan.

 

[spat]

It's the implied threat that is the crime, not the fact that you aren't carrying concealed....

 

[MilesTeg]

All of this went through our heads right after the confrontation. Taking pictures, license plate, all that.
It happened fast and my concern was safety.
Another worry is, how crazy is this guy?
I walk that road several times a week when in town. I see this guy all the time hauling ass with his big flags flying on this same road. Our paths will cross again.
My family lives on this road, I have no choice.

I'm sorry to hear that. My guess is you will have another run it with this guy and my guess is it will be escalated. I would have a talk with your GF and let her know if he does that again and exits the vehicle that's her cue to dial 911. Maybe go over with her what to say. She needs to be able to convey her fear and concerns of the situation.

One point I didn't mention and some people started to touch upon, is verbally taking control of the situation. Not mocking him or antagonizing, rather give him clear concise instructions on what to do. Like get back in the car the authorities are on their way. If he stays out of his vehicle if he makes any moves towards you tell him to keep his distance. You being previous military should know how effective simple commands can be in stressful situations.

I really hope this guys drops it, but I would count one it. Be prepared have a plan and good luck.

 

[Marine Cpl]

It's the implied threat that is the crime, not the fact that you aren't carrying concealed....

I'm not going to derail the good man's thread but perhaps we can debate what brandishing means at the other thread since you seem to be contradicting yourself.