Deadly force

[VietnamEraVet]

It does, but it's also brandishing. Any attempt to invoke the firearm before you are justified in shooting is a crime.

It's possible that it could still be the best option though, brandishing is a lesser charge than shooting the guy, but it would still be a bad plan.

You say it's a bad plan, but realistically, what option do you have? I know this, IF I have to pull my gun and it stops him from advancing on me, I will still be holding it on him until the police show up. I view that differently than firing a warning shot. I'll take my chances with a DA and a jury if need be, but to me, if I can make the case that my drawing caused him to stop his advance and threats of deadly harm on me before I had to shoot him, then I think it would not qualify as brandishing. Maybe a close call, but better than letting him bash your brains in.

Of course there is the school of thought that if you need to pull your firearm, that you NEED to shoot them. And as some have said, a dead asshole cannot refute your statement.

 

[S&W Fan]

All of this went through our heads right after the confrontation. Taking pictures, license plate, all that.
It happened fast and my concern was safety.
Another worry is, how crazy is this guy?
I walk that road several times a week when in town. I see this guy all the time hauling ass with his big flags flying on this same road. Our paths will cross again.
My family lives on this road, I have no choice.

If that's the case , then it sounds like you need to offer this guy a beer and ask what the phuk his attitude is all about. If you see him around often then ( if observent) he must notice you around as well.
Maybe, if he finds out that you're a vet he'll be apologetic. Not that being a Vet should matter. His behavior and demeanor are unacceptable.

 

[Criticalt]

I'm sorry to hear that. My guess is you will have another run it with this guy and my guess is it will be escalated. I would have a talk with your GF and let her know if he does that again and exits the vehicle that's her cue to dial 911. Maybe go over with her what to say. She needs to be able to convey her fear and concerns of the situation.

One point I didn't mention and some people started to touch upon, is verbally taking control of the situation. Not mocking him or antagonizing, rather give him clear concise instructions on what to do. Like get back in the car the authorities are on their way. If he stays out of his vehicle if he makes any moves towards you tell him to keep his distance. You being previous military should know how effective simple commands can be in stressful situations.

I really hope this guys drops it, but I would count one it. Be prepared have a plan and good luck.

The thing is that I did NOTHING wrong.
If we did not move, he WOULD have killed us, 100% positive. His truck did not even sway, he drove right where we were walking.
The he escalates by getting out of his truck and threatening to kill me.
It is my thought that in such a small town, he is probably well known be law enforcement.
I will not say a word to him, I will not wave at him, I will ignore him.
If he chooses to escalate with me, an innocent, lae abiding citizen, he will have to live with the consequences.

 

[spat]

You say it's a bad plan, but realistically, what option do you have? I know this, IF I have to pull my gun and it stops him from advancing on me, I will still be holding it on him until the police show up. I view that differently than firing a warning shot. I'll take my chances with a DA and a jury if need be, but to me, if I can make the case that my drawing caused him to stop his advance and threats of deadly harm on me before I had to shoot him, then I think it would not qualify as brandishing. Maybe a close call, but better than letting him bash your brains in.

Of course there is the school of thought that if you need to pull your firearm, that you NEED to shoot them. And as some have said, a dead asshole cannot refute your statement.

You might be right about it being the best option in that circumstance, but it is still a shitty option.

I don't buy the "if you draw you should fire" thing, but you shouldn't draw until you intend to fire, so unless things change drastically in the second or 2 while you are drawing....

 

[Criticalt]

If that's the case , then it sounds like you need to offer this guy a beer and ask what the phuk his attitude is all about. If you see him around often then ( if observent) he must notice you around as well.
Maybe, if he finds out that you're a vet he'll be apologetic. Not that being a Vet should matter. His behavior and demeanor are unacceptable.

Thats my thought
Hes the kind of guy I hang out with, minus the goofy flags.
It was and is in his hands, I did nothing wrong and will continue to do nothing wrong.
However, there are guys that just like violence.
His call

 

[VietnamEraVet]

You might be right about it being the best option in that circumstance, but it is still a shitty option.

I don't buy the "if you draw you should fire" thing, but you shouldn't draw until you intend to fire, so unless things change drastically in the second or 2 while you are drawing....

It's only a shitty option due to how poorly written the laws are here in NY and elsewhere. Some of our laws, and especially the firearm related ones are as clear as mud.

 

[S&W Fan]

Thats my thought
Hes the kind of guy I hang out with, minus the goofy flags.
It was and is in his hands, I did nothing wrong and will continue to do nothing wrong.
However, there are guys that just like violence.
His call

Unfortunately , you are correct about the violent nature of some.
Hopefully he ends up seeing the error of his ways before he comes across somebody that likes it even more than he seem to.

 

[dsdmmat]

If the guy had a tire iron or something then you would probably be ok, but if he was bare handed, I'd rather take a physical beating than the legal mess that would undoubtedly ensue.

Sorry that answer doesn't compute. Many people have died or have received a serious brain injury from being punched once. I will not take a beating in lieu of a legal mess, the beating may be the last time you are you.

 

[spat]

It's only a shitty option due to how poorly written the laws are here in NY and elsewhere. Some of our laws, and especially the firearm related ones are as clear as mud.

Most places deadly force against an equal and unarmed attacker is prohibited.

It is a shitty situation, and there aren't good answers. Anything you can do to get out with everyone having the same number of holes that they started with is a better option. Maybe engage the guy HTH and tell the girlfriend to run up and drive off in his truck while you do ? Did he leave it running LOL ?

 

[Criticalt]

Most places deadly force against an equal and unarmed attacker is prohibited.

It is a shitty situation, and there aren't good answers. Anything you can do to get out with everyone having the same number of holes that they started with is a better option. Maybe engage the guy HTH and tell the girlfriend to run up and drive off in his truck while you do ? Did he leave it running LOL ?

Have you ever been in this type of situation?
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.....does not work.
You are caught by surprise and it goes fast.
I shoulda apologized for any perceived gesture towards him.
I coulda acted crazier than him and started beating my dog.
I woulda got his plate number and called the cops incase of future issues.
25 seconds of action, no ifs, no ands and no buts.

 

[Podmonkey]

I think the reason people like this exist is precisely because they are not worried about being shot. 150 years ago I bet people minded their Ps & Qs more. There were actual consequences to poor behavior in those days.

 

[spat]

Have you ever been in this type of situation?
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.....does not work.
You are caught by surprise and it goes fast.
I shoulda apologized for any perceived gesture towards him.
I coulda acted crazier than him and started beating my dog.
I woulda got his plate number and called the cops incase of future issues.
25 seconds of action, no ifs, no ands and no buts.

So, what were you asking for when you posted, besides "shoulda woulda coulda" ?

 

[spat]

Sorry that answer doesn't compute. Many people have died or have received a serious brain injury from being punched once. I will not take a beating in lieu of a legal mess, the beating may be the last time you are you.

Could be. The legal mess could be the last time you walk free too.

It's a shitty situation, what option has the best odds of sucking the least.

 

[masterswimmer]

You didn't need the license plate to report him. You've already described his truck. You've explained that you've seen him before. The town only has 400 residents. The police could possibly know him already. He threatened to kill you.

File a police report. Get on record for this direct threat. It is not an implied threat. It was verbal.

If you're sure to encounter this a-hole again, who's to say he won't be inebriated with a bunch of his chest thumping buddies. Not a good combination for you if he decides that's the moment he wants to prove himself......most likely again.

Go on record.

 

[VietnamEraVet]

You didn't need the license plate to report him. You've already described his truck. You've explained that you've seen him before. The town only has 400 residents. The police could possibly know him already. He threatened to kill you.

File a police report. Get on record for this direct threat. It is not an implied threat. It was verbal.

If you're sure to encounter this a-hole again, who's to say he won't be inebriated with a bunch of his chest thumping buddies. Not a good combination for you if he decides that's the moment he wants to prove himself......most likely again.

Go on record.

I wholeheartedly agree on the suggestion to file a police report. My ex wife's boyfriend threatened my life several times before I finally began filing complaints on him.

When they filed the second report against him for threatening my life, they told him that the next time he would be going to jail. And a funny thing happened after that: he stopped threatening me, and now when our paths cross, he keeps his mouth shut, and he also keeps his distance when he sees me.

I still don't trust him at all, and I keep him in my sights whenever he's anywhere nearby.

 

[Steal2B]

I'd suggest getting the girlfriend a permit and some training

+1. .... Of all the suggestions you could learn from your potential near miss, this may be the most valuable insight.

 

[dsdmmat]

Could be. The legal mess could be the last time you walk free too.

It's a shitty situation, what option has the best odds of sucking the least.

Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[Criticalt]

So, what were you asking for when you posted, besides "shoulda woulda coulda" ?

Like ive already said, I posted because for eveytime I read PC 35, I have an "NRA ceritfied expert" tell me you cannot use deadly force unless the bad guy has a weapon. Three guys have told me this at local ranges. One of the instructors at the pp class said this.
I know its bullshit but I thought maybe I was missing something.

 

[Criticalt]

+1. .... Of all the suggestions you could learn from your potential near miss, this may be the most valuable insight.

She has her permit. She had her 357 on her at the time.........I had a 9mm.

 

[Steal2B]

She has her permit. She had her 357 on her at the time.........I had a 9mm.

Good for you both. In hindsight, "Dodge Dude" is the one who should be replaying the scene in his head trying to figure out how to keep cool, keep things from escalating and staying alive. Congratulations for keeping the situation under ultimate control and trying to learn after an encounter with an unpredictable moron.

 

[Mr. terzmo]

Thin line in original post but "words" do equate to using deadly force. Unfortunately, actions do and a decision must be made in a split second.

One thing to remember to anyone who has any property,wealth or whatever...you have more responsibility carrying a sidearm than without that sidearm. Think about how you got into a situation..then think how to get out of it without losing your life or everything you own and working for the relatives of the deceased. Discharge of your firearm is a LAST RESORT and in a court of law; you better be able to prove it 110%. I have eaten crow,walked away on many occasions where others may have been a john wayne. I like what I have amassed over the years and won't give it away by acting like a Rambo. Not that this is the case in this scenario but just some advice.

 

[Bozo]

I think your chihuahua would enjoy walks even more with a trusty sidekick, if you know what I mean!

 

[dwa12479]

Most places deadly force against an equal and unarmed attacker is prohibited.

When and where? Can you post the Penal Code passage(s)? I've never heard that ever before.

Deadly Physical Force is authorized if your attacker has the intent and ability to do you serious physical harm, and you have no option to retreat. There is no "disparity of force" requirement. That's ridiculous.

In the situation with the OP, the potential attacker appears to have the intent, but at 50 yards not the ability. If he starts closing the distance and Criticalt can't retreat safely with dog and GF, then I see no reason what-so-ever that he wouldn't be legally justified in using DPF in self-defense, even in New Yorkistan.

 

[tirwin1]

Sorry that answer doesn't compute. Many people have died or have received a serious brain injury from being punched once. I will not take a beating in lieu of a legal mess, the beating may be the last time you are you.

Very true. A few years ago a guy died from one punch to the head. One punch. Never let anyone touch you. Glad there was no shooting but if the OP shot I would not have blamed him.

 

[Criticalt]

I think your chihuahua would enjoy walks even more with a trusty sidekick, if you know what I mean!

Ive got 4 pitbulls, a Rhodesian Ridgeback, a Doberman and a Mastiff mutt. However they dont go to grampas and grandmas with us, just the little guy.
At home, the dodge guy would have been dog crap by now.

 

[Criticalt]

I should adf that the Mastiff and Doberman would be hiding from an aggressor.....the others, not so much.

 

[spat]

Like ive already said, I posted because for eveytime I read PC 35, I have an "NRA ceritfied expert" tell me you cannot use deadly force unless the bad guy has a weapon. Three guys have told me this at local ranges. One of the instructors at the pp class said this.
I know its bullshit but I thought maybe I was missing something.

Well, you *can* use deadly force anytime you are armed. When you can use deadly force and not end up in prison depends on the quality of your lawyer and the size of your bank account as much as the circumstances unfortunately.

Carried by 6 vs judged by 12, of course, but the odds are important too. Neither is 100%. What are the odds you think you would have suffered a permanent injury vs the odds you will be acquitted. Lots of unknowns you will have to make assumptions about in both cases, very hard to do in the heat of the moment.

How much of an ass kicking are you willing to receive if it will save you a $50-100k legal bill ? I'll take a punch or 2 for $50k.

 

[Criticalt]

Well, you *can* use deadly force anytime you are armed. When you can use deadly force and not end up in prison depends on the quality of your lawyer and the size of your bank account as much as the circumstances unfortunately.

Carried by 6 vs judged by 12, of course, but the odds are important too. Neither is 100%. What are the odds you think you would have suffered a permanent injury vs the odds you will be acquitted. Lots of unknowns you will have to make assumptions about in both cases, very hard to do in the heat of the moment.

How much of an ass kicking are you willing to receive if it will save you a $50-100k legal bill ? I'll take a punch or 2 for $50k.

In a similar situation, I would take my chances.
There is absolutely ZERO reason for me to take one punch. Im not going to risk serious injury because this dick has a hard on for a fight.

 

[spat]

In a similar situation, I would take my chances.
There is absolutely ZERO reason for me to take one punch. Im not going to risk serious injury because this dick has a hard on for a fight.

You would prefer to risk jail time and a massive legal bill ? Those are your only 2 options. Your only question is which you feel luckier about.

 

[spat]

Very true. A few years ago a guy died from one punch to the head. One punch. Never let anyone touch you. Glad there was no shooting but if the OP shot I would not have blamed him.

I would not blame him either, I would just wish him luck. As for what I would have done, I guess it depends on my assessment of the attacker. Is he going to be satisfied with "kicking your ass" (assuming he can, that is certainly not a given, I'd like to think I can handle myself OK), or is he going to keep pounding you after he's won ? If I had chosen to fire though, it would have been with the expectation of a legal shit storm, and only because I considered that a lesser threat.