Totally different issue. If we can clear this one up first, that would be great.
I'm interested in hearing a story where cops showed up with a DEC-type cop claiming to be investigating wild life issues to get around warrant protections.
Does the 4th Amendment really exist?
- Thread starter Snappo
- Start date
Totally different issue. If we can clear this one up first, that would be great.
I'm interested in hearing a story where cops showed up with a DEC-type cop claiming to be investigating wild life issues to get around warrant protections.
spat
.950 JDJ
Don't know about any DEC examples, but this is along those lines:Totally different issue. If we can clear this one up first, that would be great.
I'm interested in hearing a story where cops showed up with a DEC-type cop claiming to be investigating wild life issues to get around warrant protections.
Federal appeals court: Stop using SWAT-style raids for regulatory inspections
Do you have any reason to believe that an attempt to use the DEC as suggested would fail ? NY courts seem to give far more leeway than FL.
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
After reading this, my response to the OP is no, the 4th amendment does not exist. When the same court reaches the same conclusion on 3 separate occasions and the Stasi ignores them, it is long since dead. Maybe if on one of these occasions the court held the departments and all individuals involved in one of these fiasco's (like the wrongful death of the 92 YO woman) in contempt of court and issued punishment simply on those grounds, it might swing the balance back from SWATting people without probable cause. I don't think it would ever happen in the People's Republic of New York, though.
I've never heard of this besides in this very thread, so why would I guess at something that has never happened as far as I can tell?
Yeah, I'm being obtuse. I'm unwilling to fall into the trap of "defending" a made up evil of policing/government. Honestly, after the post I quoted this thread got pretty tin foily and I immediately regretted injecting myself at all.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Heard of meaning in news reports; not the hallucinatory babblings of democrats and republicans looking to further some politcal agenda. California Supreme Court also recently ruled a Game Warden can stop and search a car without probable cause, yet cops still need probable cause.
A Game Warden can examine, without a warrant as provided by law, any vehicle, creel, land or water conveyance, fish box, cooler, game bag or any other place where evidence of a crime may be hidden or transported whenever there is reason to believe that a violation of state law has been committed.
They have the "right" to be on your private property, without warrant on suspicion of ANY crime. They have the right to inspect ANY container, regardless of it's location (for instance a freezer in your basement, whether or not that freezer exists).
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
The only ones exempt would be KelTec and Glock owners!
I don't own a Keltec but Glocks are metal. They take a steel frame, then they encase it within ABS plastic of some sort. But it's metal inside that plastic. Same holds true for my XD's.
Ok, so then I'm sure you can provide an example of this happening in real life. Like, "I'm Officer DEC and you have a freezer in your basement I say so me and these cops are coming in."
spat
.950 JDJ
Even if it never happens, the fact that in the current climate there is nothing preventing it from happening, and those in power defend their ability to do it proves the problem.
If you had people claiming that summary execution was a valid exercise of state power, would you defend it by asking for an example where someone was executed who didn't "really deserve" it ?
I am sorry, but "Trust us, we won't abuse this authority" has never worked out for the people in the long term.
We are indeed on some very shaky ground in regards to the Forth, as well as other Rights.
But some of the problems are the forwarding of lies, stories and propaganda that just does not exist.
Sure there are many "Stories" of these 4A violations, but how many are real? And how many are just turning into forklore?
We are in dangerous times, but just guessing at what may or may not actually be happening is just as dangerous.
But some of the problems are the forwarding of lies, stories and propaganda that just does not exist.
Sure there are many "Stories" of these 4A violations, but how many are real? And how many are just turning into forklore?
We are in dangerous times, but just guessing at what may or may not actually be happening is just as dangerous.
spat
.950 JDJ
While some of these theories may just be urban legend, the fact that the detractors can't say "any officer trying that would be prosecuted under X" means that the ground isn't shaky, it's nonexistent.
We have state authorities defending this particular "tactic"?
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
I linked a story of a 92 year old great grandma getting ghosted and 3 cops getting a decade in the slammer., and the actual law in NY saying a Game Warden's job supercedes your 4th Amendment. I could probably find a shit ton more on the subject, but why? Because someone on our forum needs a video of it happening at his neighbor's house before he thinks the law is real? The Supreme Court would not have weighed in to humor Internet gossip, btw.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
I linked a Supreme Court ruling on the 4A being superceded by a GW doing his job. Are you being purposely obtuse?
4excal
.338 Win Mag
"I plead the 5th on knowing about the life or death of the 4th but if ya don't allow my 1st get prepped to enjoy my 2nd"
Footnote..quoted by 4excal
Footnote..quoted by 4excal
Wasn't a shot toward you. I saw the link. They went to jail. My point is that there are more stories being told than actual cases like this. Sure, it is happening and it completely sucks. Our liberties are being eroded very fast, but the stories and guesses make it worse.
Yes because that is not the same thing. You specifically stated that a game warden could be used to get cops into one's home without a warrant. Show me where that happened. Saying that oranges are orange, then showing me an Apple doesn't prove your point.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Which is more important to you - that something has happened or that it can happen? I showed the NY law that clearly stated a GW could enter your property, your home, your vehicle, and in no way needs a search warrant to do so. I saw a news article that said the police were bringing a GW to a bust because they didn't have a search warrant and the GW didn't need one. So a GW enters your property and says he saw something shifty, and that gives the cop probable cause and then they go in next. I have never seen it first hand, as I have never been arrested or had a search of my property. But I would be pretty hot if I was searched without a warrant and my 4th amendment didn't matter.
camper4lyfe
.308 Win
Border Patrol only has jurisdiction within 100 miles of the borders.
spat
.950 JDJ
That actually covers the homes of most Americans. When you include international airports in the definition of "borders" it covers nearly everywhere.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Fair point. It's hard to tell what's true and what's hype. BBC isn't going to report on a drug bust without a warrant but with a GW present. They and Reuters might be the last of the mildly biased bunch anymore. Fox and CNN are so busy sucking the shit out of Killery's asshole that they don't have the time or manpower to report on actual event that involve the Bill of Rights. I have witnessed a 4th Amendment violation first hand. The court system must be so corrupt that the police don't even care anymore about the BoR, and only care about which judge will look the other way.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Airports are international borders when it comes to the rights of the Border Patrol? Even small regional airports are "international" now if they have even a single flight to Canada, the Caribbean, or Mexico. Hancock is "International" and I am not convinced they are all that much bigger than the TV show Wings. Or more competent, for that matter.
spat
.950 JDJ
Pretty sure if they have customs officers they are a border.
Snappo
6.5 Creedmoor
Let's hope Border Patrol agents are better educated, better trained, and better vetted than TSA agents. Half of the ones at Syracuse Airport are perverts that get off on groping children. I won't even let my children fly out of Syracuse anymore because 2 or 3 of them are lecherous.
Cavalry
.338 Win Mag
They are limited to 100 miles of the boarder
All of these stories start with the game warden lying, and while that could happen I would ask why bother. If a cop is going to lie to gain access to your property, it is simpler for the officer to simply lie, rather then involve someone else, from a different agency, and have them tell a lie.
I have seen no exception in the law that exempts game wardens or conservation officers from the reasonable suspicion/probable cause restrictions place on regular cops. That said I have also never seen any regulations that restrict game wardens more then private citizens. That would mean that unless your property is posted, or you have asked them to leave, there is nothing stopping a warden from wondering on to your property looking for possible violations of the law.
Anyone have any proof of game wardens entering someone's property without a warrant or not falling under one of exigent circumstances as laid out in case law?
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GuyMontag
.44 mag
The 4th Amendment is effectively gone, along with the presumption of innocence.
Departments all over the country have been using cell site simulator devices like Stingray to subvert the 4th Amendment and cavalierly dispense with due process rights. Between the time honored tradition of Testilying, and other ends justify the means tactics, the rights of the accused are in deeper trouble today than ever.
Departments all over the country have been using cell site simulator devices like Stingray to subvert the 4th Amendment and cavalierly dispense with due process rights. Between the time honored tradition of Testilying, and other ends justify the means tactics, the rights of the accused are in deeper trouble today than ever.
spat
.950 JDJ
Many departments, as a matter of policy, would lie to a judge about stingray use when obtaining warrants. To date I haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted for this .
If you can't do your job without breaking the law, then don't do the job. I don't care if it means Charles Manson goes free, because no criminal is as dangerous as a government that thinks the ends justify the means. If you don't believe me, look up 20th century history for dummies....
Cavalry
.338 Win Mag
My Neighbor is not local so I keep an eye on his property. I caught a DEC officer taking pictures of my neighbors construction equipment about 500' off into the woods(nothing leaking or other ecological hazards). How he knew it was all even back there is anyone's guess. I scared the shit out of him walking behind him and asking if he needed help with something. He asked if I was the landowner to which I responded no, I keep an eye on the place. I asked what his purpose was back there, he would not tell me because I was not the owner. My neighbor contacted DEC to see what their business was, they had no record of any visit by that officer. He escalated it to some sort of supervisor, which told him they can do whatever they want to investigate potential violations, which they had no record of having.
Was the property posted, or fenced? Ad far as I know anyone can legally walk on to an unposted/unfenced property only, it's an ass hole move, but legal as far as I know. So if the property wasn't posted or fenced, no warrant or rs/pc would be needed.
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