M27 And 'Head-Toe' Gear For Grunts !
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GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
Army Not Interested in Marine M27; Will Pursue Next-Gen Auto Rifle
Soldier fires an M249 squad automatic weapon. (Army Photo)
Military.com7 Feb 2018By Matthew Cox
U.S. Army modernization officials on Wednesday briefed lawmakers on the service's plan to equip soldiers with futuristic small arms that will ultimately replace the M4 carbine and the M249 squad automatic weapon.
Lt. Gen. John Murray, deputy chief of staff for Army G8, testified with other Army modernization generals before the Senate Armed Services Committee's Airland subcommittee on the future of Army modernization.
Subcommittee chairman Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Arkansas, wanted to know what the Army is doing about enemy body armor that the current 5.56mm round is unable to penetrate.
"There has been a proliferation of body armor, specifically Russian and Chinese, designed to defeat traditional 5.56mm NATO ammunition which is of course what our soldiers fire from their M4s," Cotton said. "What are we doing to address what is a very serious issue for the soldier on the front lines?"
Last May, Gen. Mark Milley testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the service's current M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round will not defeat enemy body armor plates similar to the U.S. military-issue rifle plates such as the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert, or ESAPI.
The revelation launched an ad-hoc effort to acquire new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle, mainly for infantry units, but the idea quickly lost momentum.
Now the service has a two-phased approach, which starts with acquiring a standardized 7.62mm Squad Designated Marksmanship Rifle, Murray said.
"That gives us the ability to penetrate the most advanced body armor in the world," he said. "We are accelerating the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle to 2018; we will start fielding that in 2018."
The Army had hoped to start fielding the advanced 7.62mm armor-piercing round in 2018 as well, but that effort will take another year to complete, Murray said.
The SDMR "will still penetrate that body armor, but you can't get that extended range that is possible with the next generation round," Murray said.
Phase two of the effort will be the development of the Next Generation Squad Weapon.
"The first iteration will probably be an automatic rifle to replace the M249 squad automatic weapon, which is also a 5.56mm," Murray said.
The Army has decided, however, that it is interested in following the Marine Corps' adoption of the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle.
"We have been pushed on the M27, which the Marine Corps has adopted, that is also a 5.56mm which doesn't penetrate, so we are going to go down a path next generation squad weapon automatic rifle first to be closely followed, I'm hopeful, with either a rifle or a carbine that will fire something other than a 5.56mm.
"That is what we see as a replacement for the M4 in the future."
Murray added that "It probably won't be a 7.62mm; it will probably be something in between -- case-telescoping round, probably polymer cased to reduce the weight of it.
Murray also confirmed that the Army already has a science and technology demonstration weapon, made by Textron System.
The working prototype has evolved out Textron's light and medium machine guns that fire 5.56mm and 7.62mm case-telescoped ammunition developed under the Lightweight Small Arms Technology program.
Over the last decade, the Army has invested millions in the development of the program, which has now been rebranded to Textron's Case-Telescoped Weapons and Ammunition.
"It's too big; it's too heavy," Murray said. "We have recently opened it up to commercial industry for them to come in with their ideas. We have offered them some money to come in a prototype it for us that type of weapon."
Murray said that such as weapon "can achieve weights similar to the M4's 5.56mm ammo -- the weapon will probably weight a little bit more, the ammo will weight a little bit less and we can get penetration on the most advanced body armor in the world well out beyond even the max effective range of the current M4."
The Army had planned on fielding a the new Next Generation Squad Weapon by 2025-2026, but the service has now accelerated the effort to have some kind of initial capability by 2022 or 2023 at the latest, Army officials maintain.
-- Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.
Soldier fires an M249 squad automatic weapon. (Army Photo)
Military.com7 Feb 2018By Matthew Cox
U.S. Army modernization officials on Wednesday briefed lawmakers on the service's plan to equip soldiers with futuristic small arms that will ultimately replace the M4 carbine and the M249 squad automatic weapon.
Lt. Gen. John Murray, deputy chief of staff for Army G8, testified with other Army modernization generals before the Senate Armed Services Committee's Airland subcommittee on the future of Army modernization.
Subcommittee chairman Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Arkansas, wanted to know what the Army is doing about enemy body armor that the current 5.56mm round is unable to penetrate.
"There has been a proliferation of body armor, specifically Russian and Chinese, designed to defeat traditional 5.56mm NATO ammunition which is of course what our soldiers fire from their M4s," Cotton said. "What are we doing to address what is a very serious issue for the soldier on the front lines?"
Last May, Gen. Mark Milley testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the service's current M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round will not defeat enemy body armor plates similar to the U.S. military-issue rifle plates such as the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert, or ESAPI.
The revelation launched an ad-hoc effort to acquire new 7.62mm Interim Service Combat Rifle, mainly for infantry units, but the idea quickly lost momentum.
Now the service has a two-phased approach, which starts with acquiring a standardized 7.62mm Squad Designated Marksmanship Rifle, Murray said.
"That gives us the ability to penetrate the most advanced body armor in the world," he said. "We are accelerating the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle to 2018; we will start fielding that in 2018."
The Army had hoped to start fielding the advanced 7.62mm armor-piercing round in 2018 as well, but that effort will take another year to complete, Murray said.
The SDMR "will still penetrate that body armor, but you can't get that extended range that is possible with the next generation round," Murray said.
Phase two of the effort will be the development of the Next Generation Squad Weapon.
"The first iteration will probably be an automatic rifle to replace the M249 squad automatic weapon, which is also a 5.56mm," Murray said.
The Army has decided, however, that it is interested in following the Marine Corps' adoption of the M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle.
"We have been pushed on the M27, which the Marine Corps has adopted, that is also a 5.56mm which doesn't penetrate, so we are going to go down a path next generation squad weapon automatic rifle first to be closely followed, I'm hopeful, with either a rifle or a carbine that will fire something other than a 5.56mm.
"That is what we see as a replacement for the M4 in the future."
Murray added that "It probably won't be a 7.62mm; it will probably be something in between -- case-telescoping round, probably polymer cased to reduce the weight of it.
Murray also confirmed that the Army already has a science and technology demonstration weapon, made by Textron System.
The working prototype has evolved out Textron's light and medium machine guns that fire 5.56mm and 7.62mm case-telescoped ammunition developed under the Lightweight Small Arms Technology program.
Over the last decade, the Army has invested millions in the development of the program, which has now been rebranded to Textron's Case-Telescoped Weapons and Ammunition.
"It's too big; it's too heavy," Murray said. "We have recently opened it up to commercial industry for them to come in with their ideas. We have offered them some money to come in a prototype it for us that type of weapon."
Murray said that such as weapon "can achieve weights similar to the M4's 5.56mm ammo -- the weapon will probably weight a little bit more, the ammo will weight a little bit less and we can get penetration on the most advanced body armor in the world well out beyond even the max effective range of the current M4."
The Army had planned on fielding a the new Next Generation Squad Weapon by 2025-2026, but the service has now accelerated the effort to have some kind of initial capability by 2022 or 2023 at the latest, Army officials maintain.
-- Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.
Its a complicated problem, NATO has made the 5.56 and 7.62 standard, the latter is the best bet however it would require an all new weapon and increase ammo weight. The domestic answer is the 6.5 Grendel, change the upper on the M-4 and good to go. But getting NATO to go along would be a nightmare. Retiring the M-249 makes me feel old, I remember when we first got them.
GOYABEAN
.950 JDJ
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
The Grendel would never pass reliability testing without changes to the weapon and/or mags. Shoulder and bullet tip are too far apart so instead of the case guiding the round in, often times it's the bullet ogive that gets the tip past the breach face. And that's not even considering the armor shredding velocity it gives up in M4 length barrels. Works well enough for civilian use though.
They're just gonna keep throwing money at the telescoping polymer concept until it works or the next 'revolutionary' idea takes hold with the brass.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I just read a few articles that say that the army has developed a new round that defeats body armor but they don't say what it is.
Unfortunately the Army has a looooooong history of throwing funds at ambitious arms projects only to dial them back when it becoms clear that the tech isn't there to make the perfomance goals. That said I think the attitude of keeping the M4 in service until something dramtically better is available is correct. And I think the Army is on the right track with the telescoped polymer case. Such a cartridge design will keep the weight and size in check despite upping the power level. Also we need to find alternative cartridge materials to copper, brass and lead. Ammo costs are getting way out of hand.
96coal449
.308 Win
Another excellent round would be the 6.8 SPC. That one fell through the cracks quick. Performs like a .30 cal. Designed by the SF. I think it was the a Green Beret and a NS who helped in the development. I'd love to see that issued and also chambered in a SAW.
6.8 lacks the range to be anything other than a 5.56 replacement. The effectiveness of the 77gr m262 round from short to long range from either the short Mk 18 SBR or the longer Mk 12 SPR in Afghanistan is what killed the 6.8.
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Well, somebody in the military is using a lot of the 6.8 SPC, and for quite some time.
"Of course, Federal wants everyone to shoot a lot of this ammo, and to help make that possible, they’ve made this round very economical, which is the Valkyrie’s other appealing quality I alluded to earlier.
Since Federal has been making 6.8 SPC brass by the ton for their customers in the U.S. military for many years, they know how to produce it cheaply. That is reflected in the prices for this ammo, which is being offered in four different loads initially."
Robin
"Of course, Federal wants everyone to shoot a lot of this ammo, and to help make that possible, they’ve made this round very economical, which is the Valkyrie’s other appealing quality I alluded to earlier.
Since Federal has been making 6.8 SPC brass by the ton for their customers in the U.S. military for many years, they know how to produce it cheaply. That is reflected in the prices for this ammo, which is being offered in four different loads initially."
Robin
96coal449
.308 Win
I agree with you 100%. I was referring for replacement of the 5.56 in the intermediate range. I'm a believer in the .30 cal for the longer reach. I like the heavier 6.8 for general purpose. That was a 110g bullet if I remember correctly? I followed the 6.8 SPC for a while. Waited to see if it would grow in popularity in the commercial market after it's birth. My wallet needed a break 2yrs before the unSAFEACT, and I took a break. When FUAC pushed that shit out I walked away from ARs in general. Although I find myself yearning an SPR ....
96coal449
.308 Win
Thanks ....now I want to build an 18'' barreled Reese chambered in ..... my wallet hates you.
Robin
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Gun Review: Bravo Company's Elite RECCE-18 Rifle
Sweeeeeet!! Yes but you would thank me once you got to the range.
Robin
Sweeeeeet!! Yes but you would thank me once you got to the range.
Robin
ManrisFrack
6.5 Creedmoor
Yep, the crappy BCs are 6.8's Achilles heel. Well, that and Big Bankrupt Green's screw up with the SAAMI specs. I think that .mil development and money put into a 6.8 round would be able to push parity with MK 262 out past 500 yards.
Federal makes XM68GD for military use - the 90gr Fusion MSR is pretty close, if not identical. I knew that they sold a bunch overseas but was unaware the U.S. military was using it - there have been rumors but no one would confirm.
96coal449
.308 Win
Sweet but I can't stand the look of FUAC's versions. I won't be building or buying any ARs until repealed. Or the princess get's a 3rd term. Then I very well may be retreating from behind enemy lines.
I would wager that when a new caliber is finally adopted it will be somewhere in the 6-7mm range. I favor a heavy 6mm personally. I also hope that this cartridge replaces the 7.62x51 as well. Its unnecessary to have two rifle caliber cartridges. Once that is accomplished I'd like to see a universal pistol/PDW cartridge adopted as well.
96coal449
.308 Win
Disagree and agree. Depends on which way you look at it. I like the 6-7mm range. We were just discussing it. But the .30 cal gives a proven punch through out history. Well recent history. I believe the .30 adequate for DMR out to 1000yds w/ optics of course. In WW11 we carried 3 calibers in light arms. All very effective in their roles but had to have all 3 calibers in inventory. So I see your point too.
Then you have the "go big or go home " ego the US has always had. And worked well. To extents.
When things need to be put down hard and fast .... I won't give up the .30 just my 2cents.
Then you have the "go big or go home " ego the US has always had. And worked well. To extents.
When things need to be put down hard and fast .... I won't give up the .30 just my 2cents.
96coal449
.308 Win
I just nabbed an 18'' spr upper. My fuckin nest egg is almost depleted. Spring needs to come quick.
When driven to the velocities necessary for good long range performance .30 calibers generate far too much recoil for controllable, useful full auto fire in lightweight shoulder arms. 6mm or 6.5mm calibers can better the ballistic performance of the 7.62x51 at long range while generating recoil levels low enough for usable full auto fire in lightweight infantry carbines. If we could pack the ballistics of the 6mm Creedmore into a smaller and lighter package I think that would just about solve all our problems.
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96coal449
.308 Win
x2 on the Creed. With the 7.62x51 I'm always thinking semi auto. Unless it's belt fed.
I'm talking about the dual goals of providing useful full auto fire in a weapon with M4 form and weight factor while simultaneously being suitable for use in general purpose/pintle/coax machine guns and DMRs. Long range, high precision fire for snipers need not be considered since the Army has already moved to the .300 Win Mag for that.