Krav Maga

[Truebeliever]

There's sport fighting, and then there's self defense. Its the same thing to lot of people, but in practice its not.

#1! Sports fighting has rules ! Its not that there is anything wrong with sports fighting for self defense, there isn't, But there is a mental mind set which is definitely different. There is a video of Carlos conduit VS a special forces soldier which demonstrates this fact perfectly . Conduit Was a middle weight world champio0n UFC cage fighter , a real bad ass , the guy is tough as nails , and he was giving some instructions to the Spec Op guys In Afghanistan. And well you know , boys will be boys , one of the operators challenged him . So he obliged him . Now most of us know that Spec op guys are not trained to the same level as a UFC fighter . Because if your down to using your bare hands you really did something wrong. So Condit goes in there , knowing full well that this guy doesn't have a chance. 0 professional fights, and fighting against a world champ. So they walk into the ring and meet, and before the bell rings, the spec op swung and almost took his head off landing clean across the chin, he dropped the champ to the canvass , almost unconscious , not able to defend himself. He jumped on top of him and the ref broke it up.

Now a lot of people on you tube were bitching That it wasn't fair , Yadda yadda yadda.....Maybe it wasn't, But it fully demonstrated the thinking involved. The operator was trained to win in any circumstance by using deception , tactics, surprise, or strategy . To never give an enemy a fair fight. Had it been a real world situation He would have finished him easily.

They did fight after Condit recovered, and he tore him up pretty bad as can be expected. I cant find the fight on You tube .

Some of the weakness I see with Krav , is the ability to punch effectively, with force,and energy, and some of the moves they use presume that the guy cant hit with either hand or hit hard.

I like it for what it is, but if your serious , You need to hit with some authority , which takes time to do too .
Ive dabbled in a few arts , ( master of none) Issin Rue Karate , Halfway through. little bit Judo, some boxing.

And Like you guys are saying the instructor means a lot. I just started Boxing again , training really, I am not the man I used to be , sucking wind , but Im going slow. Im going to get more serious when the weather breaks, Im not running in this shit , It hurts my pussy.

Here is the story on the special forces vs UFC fighter


And they had rules and gear on.

Anyone can be beaten if if their head is not in yet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna930261

It’s mostly in the training and not necessarily the “art”.

Lack of rules? See what are real fighter thinks of that.


Do you spar in these no rules classes. They train with rules then.

Kano, the founder of judo, saw that unless one trains with resistance the person does not become effective. He took out those moves that were too dangerous to practice with resistance. Then trained with full resistance. And went around all of Japan and challenged the other arts and won.

An American boxer did the same and won.

It’s the training and not always the style. A good boxer will wipe the floor with most martial arts. Because of his training and conditioning .

And most importantly he is used to a fully resisting opponent.

Where sports martial arts seriously goes wrong is against weapons and does not account for other factors such as terrain , other fighters and weapons( and improvised weapons) as well. A sports MMA, judo, BJJ, instinctive might try to bring the guy to the ground where the ground isn’t the mat they are used to and break a knee on the hard ground. Or they train without many strikes such as wrestling and certain BJJ schools and open themselves to a punch.

And the goals are different. The sports orientated practitioners will tend to try to beat the opponent rather than just get away.

The show “fight quest” demonstrated this when they went to study Krav Maga. The MMA fighter had a harder time of it then the other guy.


Krav Maga is great because it tries to keep it simple. But so is real boxing training.

I hadn’t trained much in 20 years but the simple moves did remain and worked.

I just started again and with a bad back and other injuries. I made some new injuries ( minor and annoying)but it actually helped my back. Getting my butt kicked by people half my age is great because I still give them a hard time of it. At this stage, the warm up kicks my butt and I’m sucking wind but I am hanging in there. I’m sore the next morning but I loosen up by the time of the next class.

It’s a different art than what I took twenty years ago so I’m a white belt but it’s great. A white belt with some training time can still beat a lot of other martial arts with the black belts from the fake schools. And one doesn’t know a fake school until they seen a real school.

 

[@thewheels]

That, and I'm terribly uncoordinated and middle aged, and I'm not sure how much I want to embarrass myself

Me too. I took a few Krav Maga classes and got thrown around like a dog's chew toy.
The thing is, if you check your pride and everything you "know" about fighting, wrestling, boxing and any other preconceived notions at the door and approach the classes/training with an open and objective mind, a good teacher will see that and be able to bring you up to speed more effectively.
I realized almost immediately that there was no way in hell I could hang with the teacher or any of the other students and IMO doing that allowed me to absorb more and faster.
Embarrassment is only a matter of perspective. I quickly adopted the mindset that I'm not going to be embarrassed by getting tossed around by somebody that has been doing this for 20 years - I'm in a learning process.
I see it as any other developed skill. There's ALWAYS somebody better at it than you.

I hope to get back to taking classes in a couple years when my schedule allows.

 

[SomeSoldier]

What TB said all day.

If you don't train like it's a real-world event. You won't be ready for when it happens out of the classroom. When the Army had downtime, waiting for something to happen, we would spar, anywhere anytime. Grass, dirt, hills, flat ground. Didn't matter, they would call out two guys and say go.

 

[Toecutter]

My sifu used to encourage us to train on different terrain. Moving your feet on a mat is very different then with boots on pavement and we don't walk around barefoot on mats all day.

 

[holdover]

And they had rules and gear on.

That's my point. There are no rules in self defense. The spec op fighter almost KO'ed a world champ and would have killed him in a self defense situation because he was mentally trained to NOT PLAY by the rules .self defense.

Anyone can be beaten if if their head is not in yet.

Thanks for making my point!



It’s mostly in the training and not necessarily the “art”. RIGHT!

Lack of rules? See what are real fighter thinks of that.



That's not the way operators are taught self defense . They are trained to take advantage of anything and use it against an enemy . That why he knocked his dick in the dirt.

Kano, the founder of judo, saw that unless one trains with resistance the person does not become effective. He took out those moves that were too dangerous to practice with resistance. Then trained with full resistance. And went around all of Japan and challenged the other arts and won.

An American boxer did the same and won.

It’s the training and not always the style. A good boxer will wipe the floor with most martial arts. Because of his training and conditioning .

And most importantly he is used to a fully resisting opponent.

Where sports martial arts seriously goes wrong is against weapons and does not account for other factors such as terrain , other fighters and weapons( and improvised weapons) as well. A sports MMA, judo, BJJ, instinctive might try to bring the guy to the ground where the ground isn’t the mat they are used to and break a knee on the hard ground. Or they train without many strikes such as wrestling and certain BJJ schools and open themselves to a punch.

And the goals are different. The sports orientated practitioners will tend to try to beat the opponent rather than just get away.

The show “fight quest” demonstrated this when they went to study Krav Maga. The MMA fighter had a harder time of it then the other guy.

I have no argument with anything above

Krav Maga is great because it tries to keep it simple. But so is real boxing training.

I hadn’t trained much in 20 years but the simple moves did remain and worked.

I just started again and with a bad back and other injuries. I made some new injuries ( minor and annoying)but it actually helped my back. Getting my butt kicked by people half my age is great because I still give them a hard time of it. At this stage, the warm up kicks my butt and I’m sucking wind but I am hanging in there. I’m sore the next morning but I loosen up by the time of the next class.

It’s a different art than what I took twenty years ago so I’m a white belt but it’s great. A white belt with some training time can still beat a lot of other martial arts with the black belts from the fake schools. And one doesn’t know a fake school until they seen a real school.

I don't have any Issue with most of the above.

The point I was making is that self defense requires a mental aspect of survival at all cost mentality, using whatever means at hand to win, including weapons tricks, distractions low blows .

Like throwing a cell phone or a cigarette butt into the mans face, and as he raises his hands to block you can follow up with a kick to nuts, or an upper cut .

That's not sportsman like ,and it wont win you any friends, But it does give you an advantage in a fight with a man who may be bigger or better trained.

That spec op guy who challenged Carlos , knew god dam well he couldn't beat him in a fair fight. We all know that. But in an unfair fight he did. that's the main difference between self defense and sports fighting. You may be facing two men in a real self defense situation. or he may have a weapon, ect.. Its assumed it wont be a fair fight , don't expect one.

Don't get me wrong , A trained fighter, will always have an advantage over an untrained fighter, and its better to be trained well, than not. Those are all useful tools in your box.

The point I was trying to make is to be aware in self defense situation, you are no longer in a gym or dojo, everything goes. Because We were all instructed that you train like you fight and you fight like you train. Right? So was Carlos Condit. and he almost got killed for it.

I think you see my point. martial arts alone may not save you . You need to think in different terms , terms outside of the normal gym ideas of a good fighting skills , learn how to fight dirty , in an ""un manly way"" un honorable way. You need to turn it into an unfair fight in your favor by using anything you can think of.

 

[holdover]

My sifu used to encourage us to train on different terrain. Moving your feet on a mat is very different then with boots on pavement and we don't walk around barefoot on mats all day.

You can say that again. ever fight on slippery icy pavement? ya cant move.

 

[Truebeliever]

And they had rules and gear on.

That's my point. There are no rules in self defense. The spec op fighter almost KO'ed a world champ and would have killed him in a self defense situation because he was mentally trained to NOT PLAY by the rules .self defense.

Anyone can be beaten if if their head is not in yet.

Thanks for making my point!



It’s mostly in the training and not necessarily the “art”. RIGHT!

Lack of rules? See what are real fighter thinks of that.



That's not the way operators are taught self defense . They are trained to take advantage of anything and use it against an enemy . That why he knocked his dick in the dirt.

Kano, the founder of judo, saw that unless one trains with resistance the person does not become effective. He took out those moves that were too dangerous to practice with resistance. Then trained with full resistance. And went around all of Japan and challenged the other arts and won.

An American boxer did the same and won.

It’s the training and not always the style. A good boxer will wipe the floor with most martial arts. Because of his training and conditioning .

And most importantly he is used to a fully resisting opponent.

Where sports martial arts seriously goes wrong is against weapons and does not account for other factors such as terrain , other fighters and weapons( and improvised weapons) as well. A sports MMA, judo, BJJ, instinctive might try to bring the guy to the ground where the ground isn’t the mat they are used to and break a knee on the hard ground. Or they train without many strikes such as wrestling and certain BJJ schools and open themselves to a punch.

And the goals are different. The sports orientated practitioners will tend to try to beat the opponent rather than just get away.

The show “fight quest” demonstrated this when they went to study Krav Maga. The MMA fighter had a harder time of it then the other guy.

I have no argument with anything above

Krav Maga is great because it tries to keep it simple. But so is real boxing training.

I hadn’t trained much in 20 years but the simple moves did remain and worked.

I just started again and with a bad back and other injuries. I made some new injuries ( minor and annoying)but it actually helped my back. Getting my butt kicked by people half my age is great because I still give them a hard time of it. At this stage, the warm up kicks my butt and I’m sucking wind but I am hanging in there. I’m sore the next morning but I loosen up by the time of the next class.

It’s a different art than what I took twenty years ago so I’m a white belt but it’s great. A white belt with some training time can still beat a lot of other martial arts with the black belts from the fake schools. And one doesn’t know a fake school until they seen a real school.

I don't have any Issue with most of the above.

The point I was making is that self defense requires a mental aspect of survival at all cost mentality, using whatever means at hand to win, including weapons tricks, distractions low blows .

Like throwing a cell phone or a cigarette butt into the mans face, and as he raises his hands to block you can follow up with a kick to nuts, or an upper cut .

That's not sportsman like ,and it wont win you any friends, But it does give you an advantage in a fight with a man who may be bigger or better trained.

That spec op guy who challenged Carlos , knew god dam well he couldn't beat him in a fair fight. We all know that. But in an unfair fight he did. that's the main difference between self defense and sports fighting. You may be facing two men in a real self defense situation. or he may have a weapon, ect.. Its assumed it wont be a fair fight , don't expect one.

Don't get me wrong , A trained fighter, will always have an advantage over an untrained fighter, and its better to be trained well, than not. Those are all useful tools in your box.

The point I was trying to make is to be aware in self defense situation, you are no longer in a gym or dojo, everything goes. Because We were all instructed that you train like you fight and you fight like you train. Right? So was Carlos Condit. and he almost got killed for it.

I think you see my point. martial arts alone may not save you . You need to think in different terms , terms outside of the normal gym ideas of a good fighting skills , learn how to fight dirty , in an ""un manly way"" un honorable way. You need to turn it into an unfair fight in your favor by using anything you can think of.

You didn’t watch the video explaining on the MMA fighter vs the SF guy . The MMA guy said to him he would go light or hard depending on how the SF guy went. He treated as sparing match. After the MMA got up, he cleaned the SF guy’s clock.

 

[holdover]

????? whats your point?

The untrained fighter beat a world champion fighter because he cheated. that's self defense.

That's what the spec op guy was trained to do . In a real world situation that spec op guy won .

He didn't win because he was a better fighter, its because he used surprise and an unfair advantage .

 

[Truebeliever]

????? whats your point?

The untrained fighter beat a world champion fighter because he cheated. that's self defense.

That's what the spec op guy was trained to do . In a real world situation that spec op guy won .

He didn't win because he was a better fighter, its because he used surprise and an unfair advantage .

It’s not representative of it. It wasn’t a self defense or a real fight to the MMA fighter.

Now if they were to have a real fight from the beginning, then it would be representative of what we are taking about.

And it was when the MMA fighter got up and beat the piss out of him.

 

[holdover]

No.It was perfectly represented.

Are you trying to say there is no difference between self defense and sports fighting?

I could execute a sentry take down on Carlos Conduit from the rear, three kicks to nuts and cut his throat before he knew what happened. because I cheated. In a fair fight he would knock my dick in the dirt. All his training and practice was for nothing in a surprise attack.

The difference between self defense and martial arts are the rules in the ring or dojo. practitioner's become accustomed to the rules . That can be a fatal error in the real world.

The soldier in the video knew he could not beat him in fair fight and came up with a plan to win anyways . and it worked. He cheated, he caught him off guard and dropped him. the philosophy's between the two are evident.

 

[Truebeliever]

No.It was perfectly represented.

Are you trying to say there is no difference between self defense and sports fighting?

I could execute a sentry take down on Carlos Conduit from the rear, three kicks to nuts and cut his throat before he knew what happened. because I cheated. In a fair fight he would knock my dick in the dirt. All his training and practice was for nothing in a surprise attack.

The difference between self defense and martial arts are the rules in the ring or dojo. practitioner's become accustomed to the rules . That can be a fatal error in the real world.

The soldier in the video knew he could not beat him in fair fight and came up with a plan to win anyways . and it worked. He cheated, he caught him off guard and dropped him. the philosophy's between the two are evident.

It’s not about cheating or not. It’s does the other person know he is a self defense situation. A sports player can do the same. I showed an example of a woman do it to a bouncer. A “sports” practitioner can do the same.

A sucker punch or surprise attack can be done by anyone.

The question is would a SF guy defend him self better hand to hand if he was the sentry instead of the attacker. Against a knife, probably. Hand to hand and the sentry knows isn’t not a game, probably the sports fighter would do better, depending on the art . A real judo or BJJ player would do better than some other arts. Unless the SF guy is choked out a lot he doesn’t have the same tolerance to being choked as a Judo or BJJ player. It’s something developed like a fighter pilot learns to resist G-forces. A mau Thai guy who trains will beat most Self defense practitioners in most circumstances in hand to hand where both sides know they are really fighting and he can stay on his feet. He will have a higher tolerance to being struck. A self defense practitioner will have a hard enough time just hitting him in a general area like his head or even legs , let alone his sensitive parts.

The exception is sports moves that leave the person open. A pure “sports” guy might have bad habits that will hurt in a real fight like letting his hand near the opponent’s mouth where he can bite for example. But that doesn’t mean the sports guy is going to make that mistake.

But the sports guy isn’t looking for a knife attack like a self defense guy might.

When the MMA person knew it was a fight , he easily beat the SF guy in those conditions. Also I do not know if this SF guy was also a “sports practitioner “ as well.

Don’t think that “sport practitioners” don’t sucker punch too.

 

[holdover]

Im not saying that a sports fighter is not going to do well in a self defense situation at all. The more training you have the better off your going to be. Probably 8 times out of ten he's coming out on top.

Only there is a mental barrier in sports training to not fight dirty. to fight by the rules and that can carry over in a self defense situation unconsciously .Like not punching or elbow strikeing the back of mans head or a strike to the throat or throwing something in a mans face. Its not honorable or sportsman like. Like most guys when they get in fights wont kick the guy in the balls, even if you hate him . Because its understood by both sides that you just don't do that. Its looked down on as pussy fighting. which it is , but self defense is another level higher. Someone broke into your home and you find yourself in a struggle in the dark with an unknown person. weapons and dirty fighting are all on the table now.

 

[Truebeliever]

Im not saying that a sports fighter is not going to do well in a self defense situation at all. The more training you have the better off your going to be. Probably 8 times out of ten he's coming out on top.

Only there is a mental barrier in sports training to not fight dirty. to fight by the rules and that can carry over in a self defense situation unconsciously .Like not punching or elbow strikeing the back of mans head or a strike to the throat or throwing something in a mans face. Its not honorable or sportsman like. Like most guys when they get in fights wont kick the guy in the balls, even if you hate him . Because its understood by both sides that you just don't do that. Its looked down on as pussy fighting. which it is , but self defense is another level higher. Someone broke into your home and you find yourself in a struggle in the dark with an unknown person. weapons and dirty fighting are all on the table now.

That is true. Eye gouging is usually out too in “sports “ training.

But most “self defense “ training out there doesn’t do that either.
It has the moves but doesn’t have the realism/resistance training in most cases.


But I wouldn’t mess with most military hand to hand experts , that is for sure-lol


.

 

[holdover]

I agree.

 

[MikeyCNY]

I'd like to learn Krav Maga just because it has 'MAGA' in the name.