Can a stripped lower be classified as "other"?

Jem45472 · Jun 11, 2019

Yes it's possible. A stripped lower is sold as an other. Build it into anything you like.

BDinPutnam · Jun 11, 2019

I do not understand the question.

Are you confusing "other" on form 4473 with "firearm" according ATF?

What do you mean "it would sure be nice to not do that"? The only way to have a detachable magazine for a semiautomatic anything other than a pistol in this state is to go featureless.

I suppose if you can spec it out so you build it properly yes you can build a "firearm" under ATF definition (which is NOT the same thing as "other" on a 4473) but what would be the point? You'd either need to fix the magazine or go featureless in NY state unless you built it as say a straight pull bolt action aka not semiautomatic.

PS- there are threads here on this issue. Do what you want, I guess.

Edwardteach72 · Jun 12, 2019

I'm just going to pull up a chair of part if this thread :popcorn:

Edwardteach72 · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
The question is pretty simple, "other" or "firearm" such as the POF (google them) AR15 or the mossberg shockwave (yes I know its not a semi auto and a shotgun). So if I am correct it would be listed as a "firearm" rather than an "other"? Meaning buying the lower not as a rifle or a pistol. I do not fill out ATF forms, the FFL does so forgive my lack of terminology. FFL's are selling the POF firearms in NY and CT and they are not pistols or rifles. My question was if I can ask them to classify the lower in such a way that I do not need to have a non removable 10 round magazine?

spat · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
If you buy a stripper lower from a FFL, can you request that it be listed as an "other" or must it be listed as a "rifle" or "pistol" only?
POF sells some great AR style rifles as "others" and I was thinking maybe I can build mine that way?
I have a few lowers I need to pick up next week and figured I would ask for opinions.
Right now the plan is to build them as rifles and I am permanently attaching the mags with a Mean Arms kit and getting the speed loader but it sure would be nice to not do that.
Thank you

I don't believe they can legally sell one as anything else.

Although I am not positive about that if it was originally manufactured as a complete rifle and later separated.

Edwardteach72 · Jun 12, 2019

spat said:
I don't believe they can legally sell one as anything else.

Although I am not positive about that if it was originally manufactured as a complete rifle and later separated.

Once a rifle always a rifle. A pistol can become an sbr

spat · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
My question was if I can ask them to classify the lower in such a way that I do not need to have a non removable 10 round magazine?

I don't believe you can.

There isn't a choice when selling the item, it either *is* a rifle, a pistol, or an other. It doesn't get to change gender based on what you want it to identify as.

In any case, I don't believe there is a combination of characteristics that would allow you to have a detachable magazine on anything semi-auto built on an AR15 receiver in anything other than a featureless rifle build.

spat · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
Thanks for the reply. But the item right now is just a receiver not anything else yet. I think its best to discuss with the FFL as I cannot get a definitive answer. All I know is that there are legally sold ar platform based "others" or "firearms" being sold and I would like to make mine the same way if that is possible.

Be careful with the term firearm.

According to the ATF it is a generic term used in the general sense that we all know it (i.e. a gun)

According to NY, a firearm is a handgun that needs to be on a pistol permit to be legal. NY doesn't consider rifles or shotguns firearms.

Acer-m14 · Jun 12, 2019

Edwardteach72 said:
Once a rifle always a rifle. A pistol can become an sbr

once a 80% ... it's a unicorn .. LOL ..

Jem45472 · Jun 12, 2019

Read a bit here.
POF “Other” rifle

And more
NY and CT compliant "Other Firearm" Delta Level Defense.

I personally will stick with my ar pistol.
If I run into leo, it's legally on my permit, and I would definitely have it returned to me with no additional charges.

Jem45472 · Jun 12, 2019

Here is your "other"

Same gun as mine. Difference is, if leo arrests you, you are first going to lose it then you will more than likely be going to court for felony possession of an assault weapon or sbr.

If you have the time and money to defend against this if arrested, by all means build yourself one. It's not worth the chance for me over a $20 mag lock.

Jem45472 · Jun 12, 2019

BDinPutnam said:
I suppose if you can spec it out so you build it properly yes you can build a "firearm" under ATF definition (which is NOT the same thing as "other" on a 4473) but what would be the point? You'd either need to fix the magazine or go featureless in NY state unless you built it as say a straight pull bolt action aka not semiautomatic.QUOTE]

.

He would have to build an ar pistol over 26" with removable magazine to fit this description. Risky buying one and taking in public, but downright ballsey to build one yourself without it being on a permit first if you ask me.

garyv350 · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
If you buy a stripper lower from a FFL, can you request that it be listed as an "other" or must it be listed as a "rifle" or "pistol" only?
POF sells some great AR style rifles as "others" and I was thinking maybe I can build mine that way?
I have a few lowers I need to pick up next week and figured I would ask for opinions.
Right now the plan is to build them as rifles and I am permanently attaching the mags with a Mean Arms kit and getting the speed loader but it sure would be nice to not do that.
Thank you

It's a grey area thing... I think they are ok. Many here don't. Yes they are being sold as m" NY legal." You probably saw them at Blueline.... The issue I see is trying to build it yourself, you don't have a manufacturing license. The thing these shops have to fall back on is these "other" firearms fall into that category because they are "as manufactured." Hope that makes sense.

spat · Jun 12, 2019

garyv350 said:
It's a grey area thing... I think they are ok. Many here don't. Yes they are being sold as m" NY legal." You probably saw them at Blueline.... The issue I see is trying to build it yourself, you don't have a manufacturing license. The thing these shops have to fall back on is these "other" firearms fall into that category because they are "as manufactured." Hope that makes sense.

I don't think the manufacturer license is relevant at all.

AFAIK, it is perfectly legal for him to manufacture anything himself that he can legally purchase.

Besides, he isn't manufacturing anything. The weapon was already manufactured by the company that stamped the serial # on the on the receiver. He is just accessorizing it

Well, if you build it into an illegal configuration they will claim that you manufactured an AW out of a legal weapon, but it wouldn't be any more illegal than if you bought it that way.

The biggest gotcha you can run into is the "has it ever been a rifle" thing that @edwardteach mentioned above.

If the FFL sells it as an other, then you should be able to proceed without worrying about that. If it was originally a rifle, it was who ever acquired it as a rifle and disposed of it as an other that screwed up.

That whole "was it ever a rifle" thing would only come up if someone did a very deep dive into the history of the receiver, and if they're looking that closely at you they have already decided they are going to find something.

ArmedCorgi · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
Thanks for the reply. But the item right now is just a receiver not anything else yet. I think its best to discuss with the FFL as I cannot get a definitive answer. All I know is that there are legally sold ar platform based "others" or "firearms" being sold and I would like to make mine the same way if that is possible.

If my memory serves me correctly, the last two lowers I bought were "other" on the 4473, because they are just recievers at that point. If they had been complete rifles or pistols, they would have been listed as such on the form.
If I understand your question, you are asking if you can get the ffl to list it as "other" and not a rifle as a means to loophole build it into a rifle with features, in which case the ffl's listing it as other on the 4473 won't help you. You'd be in full violation of the safe act. If you are trying to do this so you can build one of these ride the line, its not a rifle, it's not a pistol things I'd be very careful.

Jem45472 · Jun 12, 2019

The thing about doing it yourself is you are building a pistol first and foremost which is where I don't want to see you get jammed up.

I'll get straight to the point, while these others are legal for now, it is only a technicality because of NY's poorly worded laws. If I had the disposable cash maybe I'd buy one from a manufacturer and keep it put away. It's easier to try to sway a jury I'd think by saying I bought this legally from a gun shop than to tell them there is a loophole in the gun laws which I took advantage of and built myself.

Look you got me talking like an anti Gunner now.

garyv350 · Jun 12, 2019

spat said:
I don't think the manufacturer license is relevant at all.

AFAIK, it is perfectly legal for him to manufacture anything himself that he can legally purchase.

Never said he couldn't build it himself. Said that without a manufacturing license, building it yourself would be an issue. See quote below. He said it better than me.

Jem45472 said:
I'll get straight to the point, while these others are legal for now, it is only a technicality because of NY's poorly worded laws. If I had the disposable cash maybe I'd buy one from a manufacturer and keep it put away. It's easier to try to sway a jury I'd think by saying I bought this legally from a gun shop than to tell them there is a loophole in the gun laws which I took advantage of and built myself.

spat · Jun 12, 2019

Jem45472 said:
The thing about doing it yourself is you are building a pistol first and foremost which is where I don't want to see you get jammed up.

I'll get straight to the point, while these others are legal for now, it is only a technicality because of NY's poorly worded laws. If I had the disposable cash maybe I'd buy one from a manufacturer and keep it put away. It's easier to try to sway a jury I'd think by saying I bought this legally from a gun shop than to tell them there is a loophole in the gun laws which I took advantage of and built myself.

Look you got me talking like an anti Gunner now.

You can easily build one without making a pistol first (if they aren't a pistol when you're done of course, a question I very much would not want to have to argue in court)

Just make the last step attaching the upper to the lower. If it's not a pistol when you're done, it wasn't when the lower was detached either.

spat · Jun 12, 2019

garyv350 said:
Never said he couldn't build it himself. Said that without a manufacturing license, building it yourself would be an issue. See quote below. He said it better than me.

How would having a manufacturer license change anything ?

Illegally manufactured is illegally manufactured. The only thing the license gets you is the ability to manufacture things with the intent to sell them.

If you're just saying that buying it instead of building it gets you something in front of a jury, or that it was built in volume, then maybe that's an argument you could make.

I would argue that If you get to the point where you need to try and make that argument to a jury you're already screwed.

BDinPutnam · Jun 12, 2019

There is a difference between "build" (which I am not sure has an ATF definition) and "manufacture" (which does).

Either way you know NY would take the more restrictive view.

I agree with @spat - if you do want one I'd recommend buying one complete rather than trying to build one. At least then when you get arrested you can flip on the FFL that sold it to you and cut a deal (MOSTLY joking on the last point).

garyv350 · Jun 12, 2019

BDinPutnam said:
There is a difference between "build" (which I am not sure has an ATF definition) and "manufacture" (which does).

Either way you know NY would take the more restrictive view.

I agree with @spat - if you do want one I'd recommend buying one complete rather than trying to build one. At least then when you get arrested you can flip on the FFL that sold it to you and cut a deal (MOSTLY joking on the last point).

^^^This^^^

Marine Cpl · Jun 12, 2019

You are confusing “Other” with “Firearm”. A stripped lower is always listed as an “Other” when you buy on the NICS check by the FBI because it’s neither a rifle, shotgun, or a pistol. You can then build it into anything you want afterwards. Rifle, pistol, AOW, or firearm.

Those Shockwaves and other examples you gave aren’t really “Others”. They are listed as “Others” only at the NICS check because they fit into no category. After the NICS check, they are classified as just plain “Firearms” by the ATF. The term “Other” is just for the NICS check.

Marine Cpl · Jun 12, 2019

BDinPutnam said:
I do not understand the question.

Are you confusing "other" on form 4473 with "firearm" according ATF?

What do you mean "it would sure be nice to not do that"? The only way to have a detachable magazine for a semiautomatic anything other than a pistol in this state is to go featureless.

I suppose if you can spec it out so you build it properly yes you can build a "firearm" under ATF definition (which is NOT the same thing as "other" on a 4473) but what would be the point? You'd either need to fix the magazine or go featureless in NY state unless you built it as say a straight pull bolt action aka not semiautomatic.

PS- there are threads here on this issue. Do what you want, I guess.

You beat me to it. Sorry. Didn’t get up to your response.

Marine Cpl · Jun 12, 2019

Robertd914 said:
I found this info online:

The simple answer is, the SAFE Act is a NY law that regulates the features of Handguns, Rifles, and Shotguns. A weapon classified by the ATF as an "Other" or "Firearm" simply doesn't meet NY's definition of a Handgun, Rifle, or Shotgun according to NY Penal Code Section 265.00 found here: Definitions

Right but you can turn that stripped lower that was classified as an “Other” to a rifle, pistol, AOW, or firearm. It doesn’t stay as an “ Other “ forever.

Matter of fact, as soon as you leave the gun shop, it’s classified as a “firearm” by the ATF.

Can a stripped lower be classified as "other"?

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