Don’t Believe The Hype: The .308 Winchester Is Still Going Strong

Marine Cpl

Marine Cpl

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The craze has been 6mm this or 7mm that. Basically chasing numbers on paper that may provide superior ballistic and or speed that really only shine past 1000 yards. It’s just like with ARs. People obsess with sub MOA then go on and put an 2 or 4 MOA red dot on their carbine that’ll really never see any action past 200 yards on their range.
 
Marine Cpl

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The article was interesting to me. I see threads all the time for hunting about wanting this or that caliber for more punch and so on when they already have what they need in their closet.
 
STS556

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I never had any reason to believe my AR 10 .308 was not up to any sub par standards. All the 6mm cartridges may be better at longer distances but in the real world here in the Catskills where I go deer hunting using the .308, the trees are so dense it is hard to get a shot longer than 50 to 60 yards in a straight line. I don't do long distance shooting so I will stick with the good old fashioned 308. Its one of only 3 high power calibers I own, the other two being .243 and .223/5.56
 
gun_slinger_boy

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New and "innovative" cartridges will continue to be imagined only offering marginally better numbers than what is already out there or just mirroring the ballistics of what an already existing round can do. It's all marketing. We'll only see true innovation when something other than brass, powder and fire are used to send a projectile down range. Something like a laser gun or something able to fire a projectile using electricity. A phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range comes to mind.
 
Marine Cpl

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STS556 said:
I never had any reason to believe my AR 10 .308 was not up to any sub par standards. All the 6mm cartridges may be better at longer distances but in the real world here in the Catskills where I go deer hunting using the .308, the trees are so dense it is hard to get a shot longer than 50 to 60 yards in a straight line. I don't do long distance shooting so I will stick with the good old fashioned 308. Its one of only 3 high power calibers I own, the other two being .243 and .223/5.56
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And even then, the US military has had a .308 (7.62x51) sniper rifle with regular use of up to a thousand yards for years.
 
meketrefe

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What would be the reason for someone to believe the 308 is less "capable" than something else? Give me an application or example.
Obviously don't tell me to harvest cape buffalo so lets keep this realistic. Real life, real uses, real expectations.
The 308 could have been a 7mm-08 and be a better cartrige but still in some situations a 30 caliber has an edge. Same as the 358 winchester is one of the easiests best balance heavy punchers for anything one wants to hunt big or small. Often overlooked and also descendant of the 308.
 
meketrefe

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Marine Cpl said:
And even then, the US military has had a .308 (7.62x51) sniper rifle with regular use of up to a thousand yards for years.
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The effective ranges is 800 with 1000 being possible but not ideal. But with modern cnc bullets and ammo the 308 can strech to 1600 yards and shoot almost as flat as a 7mm and 6.5mm.
The real asvantage over 6 and 6.5 mm is that it can put some momentum(grains) on the targets.
Not just energy but momentum, two different things.
 
Xae289

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I was recently watching a .327 Federal video and one comment talks about how it's SOOO much better than .357 for snubbies just like how 6.5 Creedmoor is so much better than .308. It's ridiculous. There are two points to this.

In the first place, the "improvements" most of these new calibers bring are marginal and are only improvements in certain circumstances while being worse than or equal to the caliber it's supposed to be an improvement over in plenty of categories.

In the second place, even if you accept them as definite improvements, how much better are they than what you already have? It isn't like going from a front-stuffer to a metallic cartridge, or from black powder to smokeless. These are improvements that will only be critical to people on the margins like people who shoot competitively at > 500 yards. It's all just part of the hype machine pushing that 3.14159% improvement as being something you can't live without to get people to spend $800 on a new rifle with a new optic, new ammo, etc.

Options are great, but all the talk about .308 being made obsolete by 6.5 CM, .40 Short & Weak is dead, .45 AARP, .327 Federal is the best caliber for snubbies, 10mm is the best mm... It's all overhyped bullshit. FOr the average person, the .308 is still a great rifle round with plenty of advantages over the 6.5 CM. You aren't going to lose that gunfight you probably won't get in because you were carrying a .40 or a .45 instead of a 9mm. That big bore handgun you bring into the field will probably only ever get shot one round at a time against prey animals, not 2 magazines rapid fire of 10mm Buffalo Bore at a time against a predatory grizzly, etc. For some, those advantages matter. For the majority, it's a lot of concern about nothing.
 
gun_slinger_boy

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Xae289 said:
I was recently watching a .327 Federal video and one comment talks about how it's SOOO much better than .357 for snubbies just like how 6.5 Creedmoor is so much better than .308. It's ridiculous. There are two points to this.

In the first place, the "improvements" most of these new calibers bring are marginal and are only improvements in certain circumstances while being worse than or equal to the caliber it's supposed to be an improvement over in plenty of categories.

In the second place, even if you accept them as definite improvements, how much better are they than what you already have? It isn't like going from a front-stuffer to a metallic cartridge, or from black powder to smokeless. These are improvements that will only be critical to people on the margins like people who shoot competitively at > 500 yards. It's all just part of the hype machine pushing that 3.14159% improvement as being something you can't live without to get people to spend $800 on a new rifle with a new optic, new ammo, etc.

Options are great, but all the talk about .308 being made obsolete by 6.5 CM, .40 Short & Weak is dead, .45 AARP, .327 Federal is the best caliber for snubbies, 10mm is the best mm... It's all overhyped bullshit. FOr the average person, the .308 is still a great rifle round with plenty of advantages over the 6.5 CM. You aren't going to lose that gunfight you probably won't get in because you were carrying a .40 or a .45 instead of a 9mm. That big bore handgun you bring into the field will probably only ever get shot one round at a time against prey animals, not 2 magazines rapid fire of 10mm Buffalo Bore at a time against a predatory grizzly, etc. For some, those advantages matter. For the majority, it's a lot of concern about nothing.
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This is what I was saying with much less words. One thing I did forget to mention though was overcoming physics. If you could get a 50 BMG to recoil like a 22lr in a rifle the weight of a typical 22lr rifle you'd have a winner as well. But you can't overcome physics.
 
meketrefe

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There is a huge amount of calibers(casings) that do exactly the same thing because they shoot the same bullets and in the end ia the bullet with accuracy what really matters. The 260 does everything the 6 5 cree. does and a tad more. The 6.5x47 lapua is not as fast but it wins scoring competitions left and right.

Calibers are as good as their quality of chamber and ammo and the bullets used.

I mean given some minimum design considerations to the design to be reliable and accurate.

To those who are in hype of the fashion I will challenge then to take the best bullet you can find in 6.5mm and explain to me how this is any better to the best bullet I can find in 308 to:
A) extreme long range
B) hunting an animal of considerable weight, lets say a large brown bear within 100/200 yards
C) to end being a good anti personal and antimaterial caliber.

Show me how. Specifics, no internet mambo jambo.

Lets compare things for what they are and not the amount spent in marketing.
 
Vapor

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6.5 is a nice target round that doubles as a low recoil hunting round for medium game.

It comes in a short action. It approaches .270 power in the right applications.



Crazy. Just like .308 is really close to .30-06 or...wait...



These are ridiculous arguments in our state anyway. Who plans to battle it out or hunt at opposite ends of the interstate? The average hunting shot I've taken was 70 yards or less. Most farm fields aren't more than 300. I know, I sound like a yokel, and long range stuff is cool.

I still chose a .308 for long range rifle because it performs very well for the ranges I need and match ammo was plentiful.
 
Criticalt

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I have it a bit different that some here I guess. We have corn fields that when cut are over 1000 yards of flat open land. Although I wont take a deer at that distance, ill take coyotes at 500-600 yards if I must.
For years my 2 hunting buddies have been battling each other to find the round to "outperform" the other guy. From 7mm-08, 6.5 Creedmore, to 7mm mag........
Meanwhile.....I just quietly keep collecting hides with my 308.
To be fair, these guys get just as many but they spend alot of money doing it. They have to choose between 11 rifles for one deer or coyote hunt.
I have 3 choices.....12 gauge, 308, 338 Lapua Mag.....depending on distance. If I cant get you with the Lapua, you deserve to get away.
Anyways, I love the 308 and for every application ive needed a gun for in 49 years, its been more that capable.
Including shooting a coyote at 400 yards who was dragging a baby goat (20 lbs) by the leg. I had 1 shot at 400 yards at a running coyote and didnt want to hit the goat.......hit it dead center behind the shoulder....died on its feet.
 
meketrefe

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Lots of people talk about ballistics based on what they hear and see in magazines, websites, youtube, forums, etc.. but wo having a clear understanding of the science and variables involved.
At the same time we have those self proclaimed experts writting articles in magazines, websites and forums making assertions, speaking with such authority and making feel the average guy is not capable of understanding, like if the ballistics concepts were some sort of obscure and complicated science only understood by privileged minds.
They are so full of shit. They even post wrong information or hide critical data to justify their reasoning.
Of course a minimum amount of time and attention has to be invested to discuss and share some knowledge but anything we need to know can be explained to anyone both by concept and detail in a way that can also be practically applied.
There is much to like about the 6mm and 6.5mm bores, perhaps even more about the 6mm and if you want to discuss why the 308 is a lot more versatile than the 6 5 across the board we can talk about that.
And for that we also have to talk about all the bullets available in the 260 and 30 bores.
We can talk realistic scenarios and how the 308 can also be a better long range cartrige than the short action 6.5mm ones once we uerstand all pros and cons.
Anyone interested in this type of discussion?
 
Marine Cpl

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I know a guy like that. He says that the .300 Barack Obama is no good despite the hundreds of deer if not thousands that have been killed with the 110 gr Supersonic bullet within 200 yards.
 
spat

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meketrefe said:
Lots of people talk about ballistics based on what they hear and see in magazines, websites, youtube, forums, etc.. but wo having a clear understanding of the science and variables involved.
At the same time we have those self proclaimed experts writting articles in magazines, websites and forums making assertions, speaking with such authority and making feel the average guy is not capable of understanding, like if the ballistics concepts were some sort of obscure and complicated science only understood by privileged minds.
They are so full of shit. They even post wrong information or hide critical data to justify their reasoning.
Of course a minimum amount of time and attention has to be invested to discuss and share some knowledge but anything we need to know can be explained to anyone both by concept and detail in a way that can also be practically applied.
There is much to like about the 6mm and 6.5mm bores, perhaps even more about the 6mm and if you want to discuss why the 308 is a lot more versatile than the 6 5 across the board we can talk about that.
And for that we also have to talk about all the bullets available in the 260 and 30 bores.
We can talk realistic scenarios and how the 308 can also be a better long range cartrige than the short action 6.5mm ones once we uerstand all pros and cons.
Anyone interested in this type of discussion?
Click to expand...
I think terminal ballistics can be a bit of an art, there are so many variables that interact in subtle ways and shot placement is so much more important that real world data often gets buried in the noise.

But interior and exterior ballistics is actually very simple and easy to understand with only a few easily measured variables.

Once you decide on a bullet, velocity on target and range, it seems to be be a simple matter to choose the rest of the system that can deliver that.
 
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