CA/NY New Option to AWB/Safe Act

freddy said:

My attorney says this interpretation of the statutes is catagorically incorrect.

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Again. Lol about an attorney. They read english just like you do. The law isn't written in attorney only code. You can do the same.

If your attorney misreads a point in the law, it doesn't absolve you from prosecution or give you immunity.

That's just as laughable as calling the NYSP hotline.

Willjr75 said:

Again. Lol about an attorney. They read english just like you do. The law isn't written in attorney only code. You can do the same.

If your attorney misreads a point in the law, it doesn't absolve you from prosecution or give you immunity.

That's just as laughable as calling the NYSP hotline.

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I hope that we can still be friends even if I choose to take my legal advice from a professional attorney.

freddy said:

I hope that we can still be friends even if I choose to take my legal advice from a professional attorney.

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If it makes you feel good and sleep better at night like a baby's security blanket that doesn't really offer protection, then go right ahead. It's no skin off my head.

I'm still cool with you same as I'm cool with people who call the NYSP hotline.

Willjr75 said:

I feel the same about you. You aren't being honest. I'm not avoiding any point.

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My point, at least, is that of the two methods (thorsden with no pistol grip, no muzzle device, no m4 stock) vs (prince50 and pistol grip with muzzle device and m4 stock) the fixed mag will more quickly, more completely, and more independently (no parts bin needed) restore to a true and proper full-functioning no-compromises AR (when out of NY or in a dire SHTF scenario).

Willjr75 said:

So you are going to replace all your magazines with loaders instead of magazines at 35 bucks a pop? If you do that, you are making a decision to go with a fixed mag pretty much permanently. How will your rig be set up? A chest plates filled with loaders instead of magazines? Those loaders are a joke and are nothing more than range toys.

It's all about looks. Admit it already. You can't tell me with a straight face that you'll fare the same in combat or a match with a fixed mag as someone with a fully featured AR or featureless AR can.

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I prefer fixed mag because I like to be able to use muzzle devices, definitely a pistol grip, and utilize my adjustable stocks. They obviously look better than featureless rifles yes, I think most people would agree. It's not just about looking cool even though I do buy a lot of guns for that reason alone, absolutely! I've stated that here so many times. I can thank the 80's and 90's action movies for that. I'm not ashamed and love classified "assault" weapons. The first rifle I ever used in NYS before the retarded safe act was an ar-15 variant. I was hooked on how nice it felt and bought it. That was an excellent choice. The comfort and ergonomics were impressive to me. Nothing has changed, and I wanted to keep what I liked about the rifle and be able to change and customize my personal guns to suit me. I have fun putting them together and personalizing just like everyone else does. To be able to access thousands of parts that you otherwise can't have in a different configuration in NYS is nice and enjoyable.

I wasn't having a discussion about fixed mag rifles being best suited for combat use. Although I believe for home defense along with a secondary handgun which is always IWB, 10 rounds would likely be adequate over no rifle for certainty if the moment arises. I'm willing to bet it WOULD perform okay too.

I was explaining what you failed to recognize about the available workarounds. My focus was to explain the fact that converting them back is a simple process and in SHTF I would have better overall ergonomics, less muzzle rise and recoil, a properly placed pistol grip, and the ability to adjust my telescoping stock without having to add all of that stuff on, unlike a featureless rifle. Magazines are cheap and I have extras laying around.

Finally, if I had the time to set up my existing loadout with my plate carrier in which things have gone so far south sci fi style that it's curving back up north, I'd very likely have the time to swap a tiny threaded button by hand if the need arises. If you didn't have at least a few minutes of preparation for a scenario where you need to load up or gear up for something very serious, then you don't have the time likely to do anything else. I never stated, I would choose to run a fixed rifle in that scenario, I was saying it's easy and convenient to convert.

freddy said:

My point, at least, is that of the two methods (thorsden with no pistol grip, no muzzle device, no m4 stock) vs (prince50 and pistol grip with muzzle device and m4 stock) the fixed mag will more quickly, more completely, and more independently (no parts bin needed) restore to a true and proper full functioning AR (when out of NY or in a dire SHTF scenario).

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I hear what you are saying but as written in english, the law makes no mention of what negates a rifle's ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Are they out there enforcing. No. Can they? Yes. Does it matter if I called a lawyer for his opinion based on his reading comprehension? No.

Is there case law on this? No. Will there be in the future? Probably not. Anyone arrested will probably plea to a lesser charge unless they have the money and time to make a point. If they do, they probably don't live here if guns matter to them.

Spat,
of course NY law applies to NY and federal law applies at the federal level.
But those laws can only compound and not invalidate federal law.
It doesn't matter if NY says an SBR is not the ATFs SBR because one will still need
to comply with AFTs stamps and permits for SBR.
It doesn't matter if they say an auloader is a full automatic because the ATF regulates
the firearms classification at the federal level and this will make it impossible to
justify in any court.
It doesn't matter if NYS says they make their own background check, they still need
to run the NICS background check. They can put additional things but they cannot
just change fundamental definitions and laws around that will make state law
contradict federal law or viceversa.
We know a lot of the tactics are to be arbitrary and confuse or otherwise challenge
constitutional laws but not at the technical level we are discussing here.

spat said:

You could try that argument, I wouldn't want to have to pay a lawyer enough to try defending it though.

It's too close to saying a typical pistol isn't semi auto because if you aren't holding it it will short stroke.

.

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Sorry but based on the (terrible) logic about a pistol and short stroking is laughable at best.
Let me guess all semi auto rifles are full auto because you can bump fire some

Get on with that weak FUD type thinking

meketrefe said:

Spat,
of course NY law applies to NY and federal law applies at the federal level.
But those laws can only compound and not invalidate federal law.
It doesn't matter if NY says an SBR is not the ATFs SBR because one will still need
to comply with AFTs stamps and permits for SBR.
It doesn't matter if they say an auloader is a full automatic because the ATF regulates
the firearms classification at the federal level and this will make it impossible to
justify in any court.
It doesn't matter if NYS says they make their own background check, they still need
to run the NICS background check. They can put additional things but they cannot
just change fundamental definitions and laws around that will make state law
contradict federal law or viceversa.
We know a lot of the tactics are to be arbitrary and confuse or otherwise challenge
constitutional laws but not at the technical level we are discussing here.

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They can change whatever definitions they want, what they can't do is have their definition apply to federal law.

NY can call a slingshot a firearm and apply all the NY laws to it if they want. The feds won't care one bit.

NY can say that a shotgun *isn't* a firearm too, doesn't change its standing in federal law at all either.

The definitions and laws are completely separate. If it helps, prepend "NY-" to the NY definition and "fed-" to the federal definition in all the laws, it will become a lot more easy to understand.

Edwardteach72 said:

Sorry but based on the (terrible) logic about a pistol and short stroking is laughable at best.
Let me guess all semi auto rifles are full auto because you can bump fire some

Get on with that weak FUD type thinking

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Bump firing *is* pulling the trigger quickly, you just get the recoil to help you do it.

You can bet if you had a system that "bump fired" without the trigger actually resetting each shot they *would* call it FA.

And, having to hold down an extra button the whole time does not make a semi into something else. That's like saying a 1911 isn't semi, cause if you let go of the grip safety it won't fire.

The semi-auto definitions say a firearm that uses the energy from the fired round to cycle the action. They have no exceptions for anow interruption in the middle requiring a button press, all the energy came from the fired round. The fact that you stored it in a spring until you pushed the button is irrelevant.

Now, OTOH, you could make a rifle that used a battery powered motor to cycle the action like an AEG airsoft gun, and then even if it was one press, one shot no manual intervention needed, it *wouldn’t* meet most legal definitions of semi auto (and as long as it wasn't too easy to go full auto, should be regulated like a bolt action, despite having the same ROF as a normal semi)


Reference ny PL 265 for the NY version

21. “Semiautomatic” means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

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OR the federal version

18 USCS § 921(28)- The term "semiautomatic rifle" means any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.

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Man Bun AR.

spat said:

Bump firing *is* pulling the trigger quickly, you just get the recoil to help you do it.

You can bet if you had a system that "bump fired" without the trigger actually resetting each shot they *would* call it FA.

And, having to hold down an extra button the whole time does not make a semi into something else. That's like saying a 1911 isn't semi, cause if you let go of the grip safety it won't fire.

The semi-auto definitions say a firearm that uses the energy from the fired round to cycle the action. They have no exceptions for anow interruption in the middle requiring a button press, all the energy came from the fired round. The fact that you stored it in a spring until you pushed the button is irrelevant.

Now, OTOH, you could make a rifle that used a battery powered motor to cycle the action like an AEG airsoft gun, and then even if it was one press, one shot no manual intervention needed, it *wouldn’t* meet most legal definitions of semi auto (and as long as it wasn't too easy to go full auto, should be regulated like a bolt action, despite having the same ROF as a normal semi)


Reference ny PL 265 for the NY version



OR the federal version

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Nothing you say makes sense, if you had a system that bump fires but doesn't have to pull the trigger, that's then no not bump firing

And who the hell is trying to say pistols are not semi auto because you can force it to malfunction (you seen to need to learn that word)

Edwardteach72 said:

Nothing you say makes sense, if you had a system that bump fires but doesn't have to pull the trigger, that's then no not bump firing

And who the hell is trying to say pistols are not semi auto because you can force it to malfunction (you seen to need to learn that word)

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I'm not the one who brought up bump firing.

And you don't seem to get, that just because you can hold a gun a certain way and it won't cycle, doesn't mean it's not semi-auto.

You're the one claiming that a semi auto rifle that requires you to hold down a button isn't semi auto because it won't cycle if you don't hold down the button.

Your attorney is correct. Your being convinced your workaround is okay won't count for much if some cop and DA decide it's not. None of the "accepted" work arounds (de-featuring, fixed mags etc.) have been approved by anyone or tested in court.
You could probably win after buying your attorney a new Lexus but there is no question with the M-1, no arrest, no jail, no indictment, no court etc.etc.

Bragging about how you can beat the law on a website monitored by the NSA and probably the NYSP and anti-gun groups is not prudent. AND yes, they can find you !

spat said:

I'm not the one who brought up bump firing.

And you don't seem to get, that just because you can hold a gun a certain way and it won't cycle, doesn't mean it's not semi-auto.

You're the one claiming that a semi auto rifle that requires you to hold down a button isn't semi auto because it won't cycle if you don't hold down the button.

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Ok so I am thinking I miss read your original post

Before this goes any further

Were you trying to say that you can claim a semi auto isn't a semi because you can induce malfunctions

Edwardteach72 said:

Ok so I am thinking I miss read your original post

Before this goes any further

Were you trying to say that you can claim a semi auto isn't a semi because you can induce malfunctions

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No, I was saying the people marketing this device are claiming the equivalent of that.

spat said:

No, I was saying the people marketing this device are claiming the equivalent of that.

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Ok I think there's were I got confused and thought you were stating that about handguns so I apologize.

Granted there is also the aspect of product design/intended use vs. the consumers use

If used how designed and intended I can't see how there is any issues

Edwardteach72 said:

Ok I think there's were I got confused and thought you were stating that about handguns so I apologize.

Granted there is also the aspect of product design/intended use vs. the consumers use

If used how designed and intended I can't see how there is any issues

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Even if used as intended, the rifle is still semi-auto. It is not fit for its advertised purpose of converting a semi into a non-semi for compliance purposes.

I don't understand breaking a rifle to make it compliant. Legality aside, The only reason to use this mod is that you want something that looks like a fully featured rifle. I love a great looking rifle. But, I think function is more important.

Even with a tweak or work around, you need a fully functional configuration you can practice with all the time. Planning to quickly reverse a mod in the case of SHTF is not the same as having a fully functioning rifle that you have a gained proficiency with.

Just my opinion.

So what happens if NYS says the NCIS check is not good. Can they sell firearms in this state w/o that check?
They also say the SBR with suppressors are common carbines, can they sell them in NYS w/o people having the permit and paying the stamps?

Damn Spat. You are starting to actually read laws!

I change my position. Spat is correct. It's still semi automatic. It just interrupts it with the energy stored in the spring.

All

Fedman said:

I beg to differ. Here is the definition of semiautomatic per ATF:

Semiautomatic rifle. Any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.

Here is the definition of Manually Loaded Firearm as per The Int'l Firearms Specialist Academy which is staffed by retired ATF agents:

Manually Loaded Firearms means that after firing a shot, the shooter must manually operate something on the gun, in order to load the next cartridge into the chamber.

So based on the written definitions, an AR with an modified bolt catch is not a semiauto.

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*All* the energy to chamber the round comes from the previously fired one.

Are you saying that an open bolt gun isn't semi, because the next round isn't chambered right away ?

A portion of the energy of the cartridge is used to extract the cartridge. Check.

A portion of the energy of the cartridge is used to chamber the next round. Check.

You didn't manually pull back the slide or bolt to chamber the next round. The previous round did. It was just temporarily halted by a catch. If the previous round didn't pull back the slide or bolt, hitting the release a hundred times wouldn't chamber the next round. You would have to manually extract and chamber the next round.

If you didn't modify the bolt catch and modified your magazines to only accept one round, would the firearm now NOT be a semi automatic because the magazine temporarily halted the bolt from going forward? The answer to that would be no.

Fedman said:

No I am not. Open bolt design is a Semiauto because the shooter only has to do is press the trigger to shoot each and every shot. The shooter does not have to do a separate manual operation to unload and load the firearm. It does it automatically with just the press of the trigger. There is no other operation needed from the shooter other than just pressing the trigger to unload and load the firearm thereby making it Semiauto.

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Where do you get the idea that an extra action by the shooter is what makes the difference ? There is nothing in the law that supports that.

Is a revolver semi auto, because you just have to keep pulling the trigger ?

Fedman said:

That is the definition of a manually loaded firearm. Revolver is another separate category

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His point is that you have to go by what's exactly written in the law. You can't put your own logic into this.