CA/NY New Option to AWB/Safe Act

[Uzi]

Side stripper clips. Seriously! Hold on a second. Let me load the loader and then load the magazine. Oh crap! A jam! Hold on a second. Let me try to remove the base plate and hope the jam isn't on top of the feed lips. Does anyone have a screw driver handy?

With featureless, I lose no function to begin with. If the SHTF and I decide to care about looks, one screw gets a pistol grip back on along with a collapsible stock. That's the only functional way to go.

If I were to sacrifice function for looks, I'd much prefer to lose a small amount of time between shots where I can actually remove the magazine (the most important part of the system) then to fire a ten round magazine quickly and hope they're isn't a malfunction and the need to reload quickly.

If the SHTF and you are depending on a fixed mag to convert, you have the wrong rifle.

That's funny, I always thought you had to load magazines first before you put them into rifles? I guess not huh?

I love how you think I have the wrong setup to convert back, that's funny! since it's not like I installed them ever on ar-15 variant rifles and pistols or understand how they work or anything. If needed, it would be a very very very simple and quick task. If I didn't have 30 seconds to install a magazine release, I would probably not have time to grab my "scary no no ar-15" out of the closet and would use my pistol. "the wrong rifle" HAHA!

 

[freddy]

With featureless, I lose no function to begin with. If the SHTF and I decide to care about looks, one screw gets a pistol grip back on along with a collapsible stock. That's the only functional way to go.
[...]
If the SHTF and you are depending on a fixed mag to convert, you have the wrong rifle.

There is another way. Prince50 mag lock and a teeny tiny allen key onboard rifle, taped to the frame of the buttstock. So small it is unseen, invisible. Now you can have proper ergonomics, proper handling, now you can actually operate the safety. Pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsable stock and mag changes enabled in emergency. Loosen/tighten set screw in 10 seconds max - anywhere, anytime. Self contained, all parts and tools onboard rifle itself. Drop mags as designed when need arises. Clear jams easily. Prince50 will pass LE check of press to drop mag. Thorseden or spur does in fact reduce functionality of the rifle. Flash suppressor does provide an important benefit.

 

[spat]

IMO, their definition does not contradict the ATFs definition of an autoloading firearm. If it did then they will have a problem no agreeing with federal law because that definition is what determines if a firearm can be sold to the general public or it needs a special license like the one for selective fire.
If that definition didn't agree it would be invalid or they will have to stop the selling of firearms already approved by the ATF and possibly recall everything sold since the provision went into effect. A clear case why this type of provision has no actual effect. Any articles can compound with federal or viceversa but they cannot contradict fundamental definitions like the ATF definition for a type of firearm or trigger function.
Regarding the OP bolt catch "solution" if I put a simple toothpick on the bolt catch release lever this will turn the firearm into autoloading. This doesn't need interpretation. One could argue if a tooth-pic is a modification "that one could readily revert", whatever that means.
There are a lot of arbitrary provisions in the SAFE ACT but the most arbitrary are the ones one needs to watch out for unless one wants to be the test case for this absurd law.
If you call the NYSP hotline you might get a different answer depending on who you talk to and whatever the weather patterns.
This has been the case with many other issues discussed here or in any other forums since the act went into effect.

See the NY definition of "firearm" if you think they can't conflict with the federal definition.

NY can use whatever definitions they want, the NY definition will apply to NY law,,and the federal one to federal law, that is all.

 

[Blimey]

NYS does define what "semi auto" means:

Article 26.00.21. "Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.​

I believe that's the definition one would be arguing against if this ever came to a court case, despite what any "common sense" definition might say. In my non-lawyer opinion, none of these solutions get around the above definition. Even with a sear like the UK solution the gun still fits that definition.

There's a thread on the NY section of Arfcom where this goes back and forth, I think it just comes down to what interpretation one feels comfortable with. So to each their own decision.

Given that definition I agree with you. Nothing there says it is suddenly not semi if you also have to do something else.

 

[Blimey]

There is another way. Prince50 mag lock and a teeny tiny allen key onboard rifle, taped to the frame of the buttstock. So small it is unseen, invisible. Now you can have proper ergonomics, proper handling, now you can actually operate the safety. Pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsable stock and mag changes enabled in emergency. Loosen/tighten set screw in 10 seconds max - anywhere, anytime. Self contained, all parts and tools onboard rifle itself. Drop mags as designed when need arises. Clear jams easily. Prince50 will pass LE check of press to drop mag.

Would also not want to defend that in court if the cop reports that the Allen key needed to deactivate the lock was taped to the rifle.

 

[Bcs guy]

God I hate this state.

 

[freddy]

Would also not want to defend that in court if the cop reports that the Allen key needed to deactivate the lock was taped to the rifle.

That scenario is a real longshot for most of us here. You would have to do something pretty bad to get that kind of scrutiny. If I handed you the rifle you wouldn't notice the tiny speck of black gaffers tape. You'd need to know that it was there, the allen key is that small. Besides, the Allen key is the tool needed to clear a malfunction - it is a safety item really. A tool, I might add, that only is needed as a function of the unSafe act. Expert testimony to back this up would be easy to come by. Tools onboard rifles are not uncommon, look what is in the buttstock of the M1A. Anyway, better to be judged by 6 than carried by 12. That AR will certainly be more effective in a defensive SHTF scenario if the rifle is configured as originally designed.

 

[Marine Cpl]

There is another way. Prince50 mag lock and a teeny tiny allen key onboard rifle, taped to the frame of the buttstock. So small it is unseen, invisible. Now you can have proper ergonomics, proper handling, now you can actually operate the safety. Pistol grip, flash suppressor, collapsable stock and mag changes enabled in emergency. Loosen/tighten set screw in 10 seconds max - anywhere, anytime. Self contained, all parts and tools onboard rifle itself. Drop mags as designed when need arises. Clear jams easily. Prince50 will pass LE check of press to drop mag. Thorseden or spur does in fact reduce functionality of the rifle. Flash suppressor does provide an important benefit.

With a Prince 50, I can agree with. At least that way you can easily go back to normal with the turn of a screw. Most people don't go that route however due to legalities and end up using epoxy.

Either way you're rifle has the ability to accept, but that is another thread.

 

[Marine Cpl]

That's funny, I always thought you had to load magazines first before you put them into rifles? I guess not huh?

I love how you think I have the wrong setup to convert back, that's funny! since it's not like I installed them ever on ar-15 variant rifles and pistols or understand how they work or anything. If needed, it would be a very very very simple and quick task. If I didn't have 30 seconds to install a magazine release, I would probably not have time to grab my "scary no no ar-15" out of the closet and would use my pistol. "the wrong rifle" HAHA!

So you are going to replace all your magazines with loaders instead of magazines at 35 bucks a pop? If you do that, you are making a decision to go with a fixed mag pretty much permanently. How will your rig be set up? A chest plates filled with loaders instead of magazines? Those loaders are a joke and are nothing more than range toys.

It's all about looks. Admit it already. You can't tell me with a straight face that you'll fare the same in combat or a match with a fixed mag as someone with a fully featured AR or featureless AR can.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Flash suppressor does provide an important benefit.

A very slight benefit. Have you ever shot in the dark? The flash suppressor just slightly reduces the flash. That's it. It's one of the least most needed feature in the AR system that's why most go with comps and muzzle brakes.

 

[freddy]

With a Prince 50, I can agree with. At least that way you can easily go back to normal with the turn of a screw. Most people don't go that route however due to legalities and end up using epoxy.

Either way you're rifle has the ability to accept, but that is another thread.

Negative. Counsel has advised me there is not a single example of case law to demonstrate what you are claiming, nor is there any reason to interpret the statues as you indicate. Prince50 allen bolt suffices. Epoxy not needed with Prince50. I will post full findings when able.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Negative. Counsel has advised me there is not a single example of case law to demonstrate what you are claiming, nor is there any reason to interpret the statues as you indicate. Prince50 allen bolt suffices. Epoxy not needed with Prince50. I will post full findings when able.

Council. Lol! Who counciled you? A lawyer?

No case law equals no one arrested. Those arrested take pleas.

 

[freddy]

Council. Lol! Who counciled you? A lawyer?

No case law equals no one arrested. Those arrested take pleas.

No, it was my high skool guidance counselor. Or was it my camp counselor?

 

[freddy]

Yes, an attorney.

I now have full confidence that a set screw locking the mag release button is legal. No epoxy needed. Press the mag release... Does the mag release and fall out? No it does not. Good to go. The rifle does not have the ability to accept a mag because you cannot remove the mag. The mag is one with the receiver.

If you doubt this, and you are willing to face what you may find out, then pony up and pay your attorney.

Don't worry, you can probably get a few bucks for the used thorsden. Prince 50 is under $20 so you will come out ahead.

 

[freddy]

A very slight benefit. Have you ever shot in the dark? The flash suppressor just slightly reduces the flash. That's it. It's one of the least most needed feature in the AR system that's why most go with comps and muzzle brakes.

If it can help me from getting shot then it sounds like a pretty important benefit. At least to me.

 

[SteyrAug]

More amusing work arounds. With the fixed magazine button and the side loader charger I think you could fend off any threat that one could be reasonable expect to encounter in NYS. IF you were carrying the rifle, with the hex key and a bunch of spare magazines when apprehended .... the logical question would be "why the spare mags ?"

Actually my NM M-1 with a bunch of spare clips would be more deadly and raise no LEO questions. (also has a useful bayonet and you can buttstroke some one w/o the stock breaking !)

 

[Marine Cpl]

If it can help me from getting shot then it sounds like a pretty important benefit. At least to me.

What's more important. A slight reduction in flash to "Help You" or the ability to put rounds downrange and the ability to change magazines?

I suspect the answer deep down inside is looks. Because had they allowed you to to have a muzzle brake along with a pistol grip and collapsible stock but no flash suppressor, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't fix the magazine for that flash suppressor.

 

[freddy]

What's more important. A slight reduction in flash to "Help You" or the ability to put rounds downrange and the ability to change magazines?

You choose one. I choose both.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You choose one. I choose both.

A fully featured AR doesn't count. Let's stick to the discussion at hand.

 

[freddy]

I suspect the answer deep down inside is looks. Because had they allowed to to have a muzzle brake along with a pistol grip and collapsible stock but no flash suppressor, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't fix the magazine for that flash suppressor.

Yes, the thorsden is hideous. It is fugly beyond words. But anyone that has used a thorsden or spur knows that the rifle loses functionality.

 

[freddy]

A fully featured AR doesn't count. Let's stick to the discussion at hand.

I have a NY legal rifle that goes to proper full featured AR in seconds without hunting for tools or parts in the parts bin. Either for out of state, or SHTF; this method is faster, provides a complete solution, and can be done anytime/anywhere.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I have a NY legal rifle that goes to proper full featured AR in seconds without hunting for tools or parts in the parts bin. Either for out of state, or SHTF; this method is faster, provides a complete solution, and can be done anytime/anywhere.

Oh. So it has the ability to accept a detachable magazine after all. Run that by your lawyer. He probably missed it.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yes, the thorsden is hideous. It is fugly beyond words. But anyone that has used a thorsden or spur knows that the rifle loses functionality.

How so?

 

[freddy]

Oh. So it has the ability to accept a detachable magazine after all. Run that by your lawyer. He probably missed it.

Not without tools/disassembly. And I did.

 

[freddy]

How so?

Oh, okay Will. They repeal unSafe and you will leave that thorsden on? C'mon man.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Not without tools/disassembly. And I did.

Look for the other thread where it's discussed at nauseum or read the law itself and see if tools or disassembly is included in the law in regards to negating a semi automatic rifle's ability to accept a detachable magazine.

I won't dance that dance in this thread. It's boring.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Oh, okay Will. They repeal unSafe and you will leave that thorsden on? C'mon man.

Of course I wouldn't. Who would? But when it comes down to it if you were in Afghanistan in a firefight and you could only have one or the other, only a fool would pick a fixed magazine over a Thordsen.

Let's be honest here unless looks mattered to you when your life was in the line.

 

[freddy]

Of course I wouldn't. Who would? But when it comes down to it if you were in Afghanistan in a firefight and you could only have one or the other, only a fool would pick a fixed magazine over a Thordsen.

Let's be honest here unless looks mattered to you when your life was in the line.

You are trying your level best to avoid the point.

 

[freddy]

Look for the other thread where it's discussed at nauseum or read the law itself and see if tools or disassembly is included in the law in regards to negating a semi automatic rifle's ability to accept a detachable magazine.

I won't dance that dance in this thread. It's boring.

My attorney says this interpretation of the statutes is catagorically incorrect.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You are trying your level best to avoid the point.

I feel the same about you. You aren't being honest. I'm not avoiding any point.