Officer involved shooting, man w/ knife

Edwardteach72

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Badge cam showing an officer involved shooting and a man with.a knife.

Few things from the video that can be taken away.

1) handguns are terrible at stopping humans. Yes there are times when 1 round of anything will put someone down, there are other times when 12 rounds does nothing. Handguns are a compromise, and to many people get comfortable thinking that oh if I land a shot that will stop an attack.

2) for those that always say "he only had a knife or pipe or whatever why did the cop have to shoot him he was so far away" well all those objects, even hands can be deadly at close range, and humans can close what seems like a large gap very quickly.

3) less than lethal options are nice to have when available and the situation dictates, but not all situations allow for them.

4) I wont touch on the holstering a weapon to try and cuff an individual because I am not an officer (and it's been years since I was on my ships reactionary force and antiterrorism training team so while I still have a decent conceptual understanding I am not the expert and will not say my opinion) but as a self defense situation I personally will have my gun drawn up until the police arrive before setting/dropping it on the ground.


Either way here is the video
 
speedkills27

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Glad the officer was OK. I had to watch it with no sound because im at work but a few things to be learned from this would be
1- a tactical reload would have been beneficial to the officer that was charged
2- the charged officer never let go of his weapon to confront the charging attacker. As the attacker approached the gun was out and it looks as if the officer is trying to re holster, but he never gets the gun had free. Is this weapon retention training kicking in? or grip fixation where his brain just would not let him drop the item in his hand?


EDIT good use of distance by both officers
 
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Airborneguy

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No reload after those first shots?

The initial cop does not have the mindset to be an officer. Hopefully he left the force after this incident before he gets more cops hurt.

The second cop has balls of steel taking those shots to save the boob’s life. I’d work with that guy any day.
 
GOPerfect

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Airborneguy said:
No reload after those first shots?

The initial cop does not have the mindset to be an officer. Hopefully he left the force after this incident before he gets more cops hurt.

The second cop has balls of steel taking those shots to save the boob’s life. I’d work with that guy any day.
Click to expand...


Picking up what you are putting down. First cop needs to find a new job. Maybe a Walmart greeter.

After the first volley of shots, a new magazine should have been seated.

As soon as the mutt stood back up, he should have been put down.

Life can be simple; do your job. The mutt should have never gotten close enough to put hands on the cop.

Bad guys do bad guy stuff. he seemed intent on dying. If your heart is not in the taking a life, look elsewhere for protection.



This brings up a good point, he was shot multiple times at a very close range. More than likely, 40 cal hollow points. Did next to nothing to stop the bad guy. So many people want to talk about bullets going through wood and the seats of a bus, this is real. This is reality. Half a dozen screaming rounds of lead did not stop this guy. 9mm would have done the same or less.
 
Edwardteach72

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GOPerfect said:
Picking up what you are putting down. First cop needs to find a new job. Maybe a Walmart greeter.

After the first volley of shots, a new magazine should have been seated.

As soon as the mutt stood back up, he should have been put down.

Life can be simple; do your job. The mutt should have never gotten close enough to put hands on the cop.

Bad guys do bad guy stuff. he seemed intent on dying. If your heart is not in the taking a life, look elsewhere for protection.



This brings up a good point, he was shot multiple times at a very close range. More than likely, 40 cal hollow points. Did next to nothing to stop the bad guy. So many people want to talk about bullets going through wood and the seats of a bus, this is real. This is reality. Half a dozen screaming rounds of lead did not stop this guy. 9mm would have done the same or less.
Click to expand...


This last part right here, when it comes down to even people carrying for self defend and just get comfortable with a single stack .380 or 9 or 40 or 45 (guess I could have just said single stack lol)

It's nice the p365 can hold 10 rounds in a g43ish size, but people will go all day with a 6+1 gun and think if they ever need to use it they will have 5 or 6 rounds left over (this isnt even taking into account missing) and those same people will turn around and tell someone who may be carrying a 17 or 21 round spare magazine and a 15+1 carry gun for a total of 37 rounds they are crazy and some shit about going to a gun battle or whatever.

I honestly carry a spare magazine mainly for malfunction clearing, but also there is plenty of evidence that a person can soak up quite a bit of shots if they are determined to cause harm
 
Edwardteach72

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I actually didnt watch the YouTube version (one I posted) but one that was on FB and this one shows a lot more.

That first responding officer was not in the correct mindset. No no one wants to shoot another person, and if there is a way to avoid doing so I'm sure we all would choose the other option, sadly this situation did not afford another option. Especially the second attack where the attacker got hands on the officer
 
carpediem

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GOPerfect said:
Picking up what you are putting down. First cop needs to find a new job. Maybe a Walmart greeter.

After the first volley of shots, a new magazine should have been seated.

As soon as the mutt stood back up, he should have been put down.

Life can be simple; do your job. The mutt should have never gotten close enough to put hands on the cop.

Bad guys do bad guy stuff. he seemed intent on dying. If your heart is not in the taking a life, look elsewhere for protection.



This brings up a good point, he was shot multiple times at a very close range. More than likely, 40 cal hollow points. Did next to nothing to stop the bad guy. So many people want to talk about bullets going through wood and the seats of a bus, this is real. This is reality. Half a dozen screaming rounds of lead did not stop this guy. 9mm would have done the same or less.
Click to expand...
Maybe he had frying pans hidden under his clothes!
:ROFL::ROFL:
 
spat

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GOPerfect said:
Picking up what you are putting down. First cop needs to find a new job. Maybe a Walmart greeter.

After the first volley of shots, a new magazine should have been seated.

As soon as the mutt stood back up, he should have been put down.

Life can be simple; do your job. The mutt should have never gotten close enough to put hands on the cop.

Bad guys do bad guy stuff. he seemed intent on dying. If your heart is not in the taking a life, look elsewhere for protection.



This brings up a good point, he was shot multiple times at a very close range. More than likely, 40 cal hollow points. Did next to nothing to stop the bad guy. So many people want to talk about bullets going through wood and the seats of a bus, this is real. This is reality. Half a dozen screaming rounds of lead did not stop this guy. 9mm would have done the same or less.
Click to expand...
From the video it looks like most of the first officer's hits were gut shots. More proof that shot placement is far more important than caliber or ammo choice.

They were probably fatal too, but that's not enough in a fight, you need them stopped right now, not dead an hour from now in an ER.
 
Marine Cpl

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GOPerfect said:
Picking up what you are putting down. First cop needs to find a new job. Maybe a Walmart greeter.

After the first volley of shots, a new magazine should have been seated.

As soon as the mutt stood back up, he should have been put down.

Life can be simple; do your job. The mutt should have never gotten close enough to put hands on the cop.

Bad guys do bad guy stuff. he seemed intent on dying. If your heart is not in the taking a life, look elsewhere for protection.



This brings up a good point, he was shot multiple times at a very close range. More than likely, 40 cal hollow points. Did next to nothing to stop the bad guy. So many people want to talk about bullets going through wood and the seats of a bus, this is real. This is reality. Half a dozen screaming rounds of lead did not stop this guy. 9mm would have done the same or less.
Click to expand...
Correct. 9mm, .40 S&W , or the ACP would have produced the same results. I have been saying this all along. Struck vitals is the only thing that can incapacitate a person. The only thing. It doesn’t matter if the vital is struck with a hollow point from an ACP or a ball round from a 9mm.

This is proof positive that energy dump, stopping power, expansion, ect... are all non factors.

When a person has a will to fight, he will continue doing so until his vital organs give out. The only way for his vitals to give out is to be struck with a projectile.
 
Marine Cpl

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spat said:
From the video it looks like most of the first officer's hits were gut shots. More proof that shot placement is far more important than caliber or ammo choice.

They were probably fatal too, but that's not enough in a fight, you need them stopped right now, not dead an hour from now in an ER.
Click to expand...
:goodpost:This!
 
repete

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I'm not trying second guess or say the should've.....
But what I'm wondering is why didn't one of the officers drive a patrol car up to him and knock him over? It's seemed like they had been there awhile. IDK just wondering , atleast I'm not saying why didn't they shoot the knife out of his hand!
 
tirwin1

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Astonished at the actions of those officers. I am a civilian with no experience but I have a few questions. Why does first cop almost plead with the perp - "please put the knife down.". That seems to be telegraphing weakness and only emboldened the attacker. Why did the two cops separate so much? Is that policy? By backing up so much don't they risk having an innocent bystander get caught in the middle? No one wants to shoot another person and cops have to be extra careful in these politically charged times. But it seems to this ignorant civilian they went way too far and joepardized their own lives.
 
Cooolone

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I think that although the 2nd officer had a pretty good shot, it was too little, too late!

He errantly did not engage when he should have, when the perp got up, feigned movement towards him... At that moment he should have been put down!

His (2nd) hesitation put the 1st officer at risk which was realized when the perp was able to get to his target. I didn't count the steps, but anything more than one was too many once he stood up!

Either that or put the guns away and learn hand to hand if you're not going to use it! Knifes, for all their legality, are controlable and with multiple LE on site, should not have been an issue.

There's too much reliance upon the lethal component of firearms as noted, shot placement is key, but not assured. Body alarm reaction, adrenaline, etc., all cause fine motor skills to be compromised. More up close, hand to hand training "and" certification should be required IMO. That said...

Only judging from my armchair perspective of course as I wasn't there.
 
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It should have never went that far to begin with. The officer lost control of the situation when he retreated and said please . I noted the very nice neighborhood and would guess that things like this don't happen there often and those officers were mentally unprepared it. I sure as hell would not want that man as my back up.
 
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""This is proof positive that energy dump, stopping power, expansion, ect... are all non factors."""



No its not. I don't want to get into it with you We have already agreed that any caliber to a vital area is going to stop a man. but you have no idea how many times the suspect was struck or where. Your proof is just biased speculation and incomplete information. How many misses out of 7 shots? Where was he hit?From what I saw the man was struck several times in the arm , probably grazed, and one round to the abdomen that did drop him. Could be wrong , but that's what it looked like. This doesn't ""prove"" anything.
 
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As we saw it was only a couple of seconds and he was on the cop.
Wonder if the police there are instructed to fire non-fatal shots first.
 
Toecutter

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I know we all train to hit center mass. If you shoot someone in the pelvis it is no longer pain compliance, you will break his bodys ability to keep walking.
No one know how they will react until they are put in a situation.
This is a perfect example of why police need to train more.Some do ,most do not .A pistol is just something they put on at the beginning of a shift and shoot once a year to qualify.
 
71velle

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Willjr75 said:
Correct. 9mm, .40 S&W , or the ACP would have produced the same results. I have been saying this all along. Struck vitals is the only thing that can incapacitate a person. The only thing. It doesn’t matter if the vital is struck with a hollow point from an ACP or a ball round from a 9mm.

This is proof positive that energy dump, stopping power, expansion, ect... are all non factors.

When a person has a will to fight, he will continue doing so until his vital organs give out. The only way for his vitals to give out is to be struck with a projectile.
Click to expand...

How do you know what the results would have been with a different caliber?
 
71velle

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I dont understand why he should reload as a few said. Cop had a G17 with 18 rounds, after firing 6 he still had 12 rounds.
 
Airborneguy

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71velle said:
I dont understand why he should reload as a few said. Cop had a G17 with 18 rounds, after firing 6 he still had 12 rounds.
Click to expand...

We’re taught to combat reload after every group of shots when the action slows. You don’t drop the mag in this type of reload so that you can reuse what’s left if it comes to that. I agree with that tactic. Why put yourself in a position where you may have to reload in the middle of the next round of action?
 
Marine Cpl

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holdover said:
""This is proof positive that energy dump, stopping power, expansion, ect... are all non factors."""



No its not. I don't want to get into it with you We have already agreed that any caliber to a vital area is going to stop a man. but you have no idea how many times the suspect was struck or where. Your proof is just biased speculation and incomplete information. How many misses out of 7 shots? Where was he hit?From what I saw the man was struck several times in the arm , probably grazed, and one round to the abdomen that did drop him. Could be wrong , but that's what it looked like. This doesn't ""prove"" anything.
Click to expand...

71velle said:
How do you know what the results would have been with a different caliber?
Click to expand...

Because it’s actual science. Handgun bullets don’t do anything magical. They don’t knock you out. It either hits a vital and the destroyed vital starts shutting your body down very quickly or it doesn’t. Similar to a knife. Multiple stab wounds to the belly and all other non-vital areas isn’t going to kill you immediately either unless a vital is struck.


I can’t believe you guys can’t see that. Bullets are no different. Some people stop fighting after getting hit for psychological reasons if vitals aren’t struck. Others don’t. The sure way to stop them quickly is if vital organs are struck.
 
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