10.5" vs 20" AR15 @ 200 yards. The results may suprise you.
- Thread starter Podmonkey
- Start date
masterswimmer
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Up close the dude looks too much like emperor monkeyface for me to take him serious. However, he was shooting guns, so I like him.
Not overly scientific and small sample sizes. However, he was shooting guns, so I like him.
Strong winds in those 200 yd shots. I'd probably never hit the target. However, he was shooting guns, so I like him.
Conclusion, I like him.
Not overly scientific and small sample sizes. However, he was shooting guns, so I like him.
Strong winds in those 200 yd shots. I'd probably never hit the target. However, he was shooting guns, so I like him.
Conclusion, I like him.
Paul Harrell's been around for a long time. His videos are great. Yeah, he usually doesn't do huge samples, but his tests are more about practical application. He likes to (somewhat) debunk commonly held beliefs by showing that the real (practical) difference isn't as big as people expect.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
If I decide to build one, it will have an 11.5 inch barrel. That little inch and a half gains you an extra 150 fps. Also, based on what I have read on police forums, the 75 gr Gold Dot soft point yielded better hard barrier penetration than others like FMJ’s and HP’s.
Glad to see a shooting video. I never got into all of these ballistic type vids though. Maybe I am too dumb to understand all the numbers, or maybe none of it matters to me. Not sure which group I fall into.
Good to see gun shooting videos.
I like to shoot, but none of this bullet numbers thing really tickles my fancy.
Good to see gun shooting videos.
I like to shoot, but none of this bullet numbers thing really tickles my fancy.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I agree is nice to see something is not BS politics even if it is a curiosity video.
One cannot discuss effectivness w/o a comprehensive analysis of specific bullets in terms of terminal design as intended by the makers of those bullets.
Cuomo is not showing anything here. It seems to me a waste of ammo and what they seem nice ribs and oranges.
IMO he could have mention what a great compromise are barrels between 14/15" and 17/18" that are still very handy and light carbines.
90% traditional calibers and bullets designs work best at impact speeds, I would say around 2100fps even when some like nosler might
advertise 1800 or 1900fps for some bullet models. If you put all ballistics tests (Actual scientific tests) and hunters recommendations
(from verified libraries and books) you will see this pattern across multiple calibers, bullet makers and designs. Some of the same
attributes of those bullets that apply to small-medium game apply also to tactical world, obviously excluding hard and intermediate
barrier penetration that is another thing one needs to consider as most humans shoot back from cover, animals don't.
These properties apply to most bullets and popular commercial ammo up to the 338 bore and then one starts to see a complete
different behaviour in the 35 and 375 bores where one can find possibilities and benefits of both small and big bore.
Perhaps the 35 bore is the first bore that brings together the best of both worlds, specially if hunting is involved.
The smaller the grain and the caliber the higher that impact speed threshold goes and the smaller the margin so one could also say
many light varmiters, light jacket, hp work best a impact speeds above 2200 unless the targets are really small animals that is
what they are designed for in the first place. Some hyper velocity soft jacket or special construction varminters (like a varmint grenade)
are a choice for people in close quarters who are concerned by over penetration and collateral damage as many of those
'explode' on contact but at the same time they are horrible in the presence of vests, or any sort of interference or even soft barrier.
I would say a op heavy match is a much better option for a short barrel and something like a 77gr sierra TMK works great and
even better than other more obvious SBR choices like a 110gr blackout. But like with any small arms bullet w/o much section or grain
when someone chooses an absurd 10" barrel to start so slow one is drastically reducing the effective range of that firearm.
with most bullets one is starting so close to the ideal threshold for maximum benefit that then one needs to seriously consider to
increase the bore to compensate with section and grain, that is the function of the thumpers and also why I designed the 35 gunner.
One can find all sort of youtube BS all day long but in then end the manufactures recommendations and scientific tests are there with
the data one should use to decide what is an acceptable use and effective range for the bullet in mind.
Calibers/ casings, guns, cool videos do not mean much. It is all about the bullet in question and how that bullet is going to work when delivering
that mail. Everything else is secondary. Terminal ballistics science is a lot more complex than internal or external ballistics and it requires
a bit more study if one is really interested to learn.
One cannot discuss effectivness w/o a comprehensive analysis of specific bullets in terms of terminal design as intended by the makers of those bullets.
Cuomo is not showing anything here. It seems to me a waste of ammo and what they seem nice ribs and oranges.
IMO he could have mention what a great compromise are barrels between 14/15" and 17/18" that are still very handy and light carbines.
90% traditional calibers and bullets designs work best at impact speeds, I would say around 2100fps even when some like nosler might
advertise 1800 or 1900fps for some bullet models. If you put all ballistics tests (Actual scientific tests) and hunters recommendations
(from verified libraries and books) you will see this pattern across multiple calibers, bullet makers and designs. Some of the same
attributes of those bullets that apply to small-medium game apply also to tactical world, obviously excluding hard and intermediate
barrier penetration that is another thing one needs to consider as most humans shoot back from cover, animals don't.
These properties apply to most bullets and popular commercial ammo up to the 338 bore and then one starts to see a complete
different behaviour in the 35 and 375 bores where one can find possibilities and benefits of both small and big bore.
Perhaps the 35 bore is the first bore that brings together the best of both worlds, specially if hunting is involved.
The smaller the grain and the caliber the higher that impact speed threshold goes and the smaller the margin so one could also say
many light varmiters, light jacket, hp work best a impact speeds above 2200 unless the targets are really small animals that is
what they are designed for in the first place. Some hyper velocity soft jacket or special construction varminters (like a varmint grenade)
are a choice for people in close quarters who are concerned by over penetration and collateral damage as many of those
'explode' on contact but at the same time they are horrible in the presence of vests, or any sort of interference or even soft barrier.
I would say a op heavy match is a much better option for a short barrel and something like a 77gr sierra TMK works great and
even better than other more obvious SBR choices like a 110gr blackout. But like with any small arms bullet w/o much section or grain
when someone chooses an absurd 10" barrel to start so slow one is drastically reducing the effective range of that firearm.
with most bullets one is starting so close to the ideal threshold for maximum benefit that then one needs to seriously consider to
increase the bore to compensate with section and grain, that is the function of the thumpers and also why I designed the 35 gunner.
One can find all sort of youtube BS all day long but in then end the manufactures recommendations and scientific tests are there with
the data one should use to decide what is an acceptable use and effective range for the bullet in mind.
Calibers/ casings, guns, cool videos do not mean much. It is all about the bullet in question and how that bullet is going to work when delivering
that mail. Everything else is secondary. Terminal ballistics science is a lot more complex than internal or external ballistics and it requires
a bit more study if one is really interested to learn.
I don't think there is any practical difference in ballistics between th 10.5 and the 11.5 but I would go with the latter also. The 10.5" barrel on an AR15 is on the edge of what the gas system can reliably handle.
All the video says is that the 20" AR15 is ams best booms but the 10.5" ams good enoughs out to 200 yardses.
He did do a video on all the various common lengths, this was a follow up video focusing on the two extremes.
And he did test multiple types and brands of ammunition and the results were all very consistent.
They take away here is that even if a short 10.5" barrel loses considerable velocity compared to longer barrels there is still enough energy @200 yards to be useful, which is good for me to know since I am looking to get a short barreled 5.56 gun for use as a truck gun. This is the main practical use for such arms, an ultra compact and discrete tool for self defense in situations that call for something more than a pistol.
Say, stuck in a vehicle on a blockaded road during a riot for example. Those of us that make a living driving don't have the option to stay bunkered up at home.
In fact a 10.3" Mk18 carbine is something I would have really appreciated as an issued arm in my service in the Army as an exclusively vehicle born troop. Though if given a choice back then from the current issue arsenal I would probably choose the even smaller MP7. 20 round mag inserted, chest mounted with a 40 round magazine or two for reloads.
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Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You do get an extra 150 fps. Will that make a difference ballistically if using soft points? Probably not. With hollow points it may make the difference whether expansion happens or not at distance But it would also shoot a bit flatter. Also like you said, it would run smoother as well.
Here in this state, I would have to run an 11.5 if I wanted to build one of those Firearm/Other thingamajigs to make the overall length over 26.5 inches.
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
At 200 yards there is a significant loss of versatility and effectiveness of the round with a 10" gun. Even A 308 Winchester will raise all sort
of red flags in terms of effectiveness and a well known problem with the AK too where lots of pin hole wounding is found and one of the
reasons 30 caliber was abandoned and became obsolete for compact service cartridges.
Originally the AR was built they way it was built for the round and not the other way around. Same with the original AKM from 1947.
I would say if one wants something shorter than 16" one needs to look into thumpers or something in the middle like I did with the 35.
Otherwise there are several loads for the 6.8 SPC will perform a lot better than any of the other calibers.
Or even a 7.62x39 but the problem is going to be the actual bullets and loads that will not be the best they can be w/o specialty bullets
and reloading.
Can they wound? yes. Can they kill? yes... better than nothing? you bet...but again, if one is going to carry a gun, less than ideal for the typical
ammo, typical use, and for a high power rifle/round and any potential benefits are quickly outweighed by the negatives of these guns.
IMO and in the case you present one would be much better of with several actual pistol calibers from 35 to 45 bore where the impact speed threshold is a lot lower (subsonic terminal design) and carry plenty of momentum.
If one wants a more compact gun the solution is simple, a bullpup or one of those 16" SU16 that fold right in the middle and are crazy light
and seem pretty reliable. (kind of a baby between an AR and AK).
If one must stick to an AR I would say anything a tad larger will be better like 12 or 13 inches and and of the "popular + easy claibers"
the 6.8 has several loads that work very nicely for that kind of configuration like the barnes 95gr TSX.
One might look into the legend with 140-160gr loads but based on my designs and experiments I would be surprised one could do any
better than the pistol and wildcats that are designed to work best within those parameters and that are not the tipical commercial choices.
I mean, of course the 458 socom is a no brainer here but I am not convinced ballistically anything makes sense above the 378 bore and the
reason for the 35 gunner design in case you didn't follow that one.
So in physics it is what it is, it is always a world of tradeoffs of some sort no matter how much we convince ourselves they are not such
a huge deal, because they are, and why the armys of the world do not have 10" barrels for a super compact carbine. If they could they would.
The 5.56 like the other service cartridges are not for 10" pistols.
IMHO and in good faith and to be better served, look into other options.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Several police departments have had effectiveness with 10.5 and 11.5 in .223 without the need for a larger caliber.
I mean this dude said (paraphrasing cause I can't remember his exact words)
People say you cant kill people with 5.56, well I've killed a lot of people with 5.56
(Guys who have actually killed people)
nygunforum.com
People say you cant kill people with 5.56, well I've killed a lot of people with 5.56
(Guys who have actually killed people)
How SEAL/spec ops set up a fighting rifle
real fun video from professionals on how they set up their fighting rifles.
nygunforum.com
The terminal effect of the 10.5" in 5.56 seemed entirely adequate to me, particularly in a configuration that is intended for close quarters use, i.e well under 50 yards. There are a number of 5.56/223 loads that are known to perform even better from short barrels than was shown in the video. Namely the Gold Dot 223s, Fusion MSR and and the Black Hills 50gr TSX atop them all.
@Marine Cpl I am seeing a trend towards lighter bullets being more optimal for short barrels. Reason being that the velocities are higher which is at a premium for SBRs. I selected the 64gr Gold Dot simply to hedge my bets. The 223 Gold Dots have remarkably consistent performance over a wide range of velocities and bullet weights in any case. Keep in mind the 75gr Gold Dot load is a slow moving round that will have more variance in hold overs than the lighter loads. The Black Hills 50gr TSX is probably the best load for SBRs but it is very expensive and difficult to find. Of course any ammunition of any type is very expensive and hard to find these days.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
I like the 75 gr gold dots because from the tests I’ve seen, they have the most penetration compared to the other weights gold dot offers. The 75’s penetrate about 20 inches while the others penetrate to about 16 inch window
Just saw this thread. Seems they are equally effective for CQB through cars.
75 or 64 GD for LE duty use?
Our agency (a rural and not so rural S.O.) is currently using Speer 55 GD .223. It was selected last go round due to our then having a mix of 1/7, 1/9, 1/12 (1033 program) barreled rifles in use. The 1033 program guns are no longer in use. We currently have a mix of: - Colt 6933's (these are...
primaryandsecondary.com
meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
Perhaps I am not understanding the actual requirements.
Here some questions about your needs:
1- Do you need a full 30 rounds or more for each magazine for your patrol / LE duty?
2- Is mandatory to have a service round? (5.56 or 308)
3- Do you have a can you need to attach?
There are many nice 223 rounds, the problem, like all other 223 rounds is that they work best with speed.
Speed is what made the 22 caliber a decent bore for the compact cartridges.
Gold dots are a good patrol round as they are bonded and a nice compromise between expansion
and penetration including hard barrier like vehicle doors or glass that is one of the harder things for
rounds to overcome and remain effective. like all the other 223 the versatility of these rounds is greatly
impacted by speed on impact regardless and one needs to keep in mind manufactures directives for
optimal terminal effect based on actual terminal design.
If one must stick to a service cartridge for whatever reason then every consideration should be made to
make that barrel longer like 11.5, 13 or ideally at least 14 inches.
When we say CBQ are you considering a can/suppressor? ... because that would be the only reason to go shorter
than 14 inches so when you add the suppressor you end up with the comparable length otherwise nobody
gains anything from a super short barrel in terms of compactness and only get all the disadvantages.
One ends up loosing precious speed, being very loud, huge blinding flash as the round is not designed
for this type of configuration.
Think about it for a second, a barrel of 12 even 14 inches w/o a large brake and a simple short sleeve is
shorter as a 10.5 barrel with most suppressors and some larger brakes and/or can attachments.
if one must go with 10" for whatever reasons there are dozens of better choices in terms of calibers and
ammunition.
Here some questions about your needs:
1- Do you need a full 30 rounds or more for each magazine for your patrol / LE duty?
2- Is mandatory to have a service round? (5.56 or 308)
3- Do you have a can you need to attach?
There are many nice 223 rounds, the problem, like all other 223 rounds is that they work best with speed.
Speed is what made the 22 caliber a decent bore for the compact cartridges.
Gold dots are a good patrol round as they are bonded and a nice compromise between expansion
and penetration including hard barrier like vehicle doors or glass that is one of the harder things for
rounds to overcome and remain effective. like all the other 223 the versatility of these rounds is greatly
impacted by speed on impact regardless and one needs to keep in mind manufactures directives for
optimal terminal effect based on actual terminal design.
If one must stick to a service cartridge for whatever reason then every consideration should be made to
make that barrel longer like 11.5, 13 or ideally at least 14 inches.
When we say CBQ are you considering a can/suppressor? ... because that would be the only reason to go shorter
than 14 inches so when you add the suppressor you end up with the comparable length otherwise nobody
gains anything from a super short barrel in terms of compactness and only get all the disadvantages.
One ends up loosing precious speed, being very loud, huge blinding flash as the round is not designed
for this type of configuration.
Think about it for a second, a barrel of 12 even 14 inches w/o a large brake and a simple short sleeve is
shorter as a 10.5 barrel with most suppressors and some larger brakes and/or can attachments.
if one must go with 10" for whatever reasons there are dozens of better choices in terms of calibers and
ammunition.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
Meke, for most civilians including police departments, 10.5 and 11.5 .223 barrels suffice. Sure, a longer barrel for velocity or a bigger caliber for more punch is better but how much better is it for CQB? CQB is for battle against humans within 50 yards. In the home, back yard, against a car 25 yards away, etc.
When a .223 rifle is built for this purpose, a longer barrel isn’t necessary as long as you know your limitations. You wouldn’t use this build if you were a Police Designated Marksman over 100 yards away. You wouldn’t use this build if you were a soldier conducting patrols with engagements over 200 yards in the mountains of Afghanistan or the deserts of Iraq. You wouldn’t use this build for hunting big game. Another rifle would serve that role.
This type of build is purely for close quarters battle against humans. A 62 gr bullet going at 2600 fps will suffice. Sure a longer barrel making that same 62 grain bullet going at 3100 fps would be better but how much better will it really be? Marginal at best better at a cost of handiness due to length. It is much easier to pie corners with a 10.5 inch barrel than it is to pie the same corner with a 16 to 20 inch barrel.
It’s a purpose built tool. Not a jack of all trades. A 16 inch barrel would fill the jack of all trades roll.
When a .223 rifle is built for this purpose, a longer barrel isn’t necessary as long as you know your limitations. You wouldn’t use this build if you were a Police Designated Marksman over 100 yards away. You wouldn’t use this build if you were a soldier conducting patrols with engagements over 200 yards in the mountains of Afghanistan or the deserts of Iraq. You wouldn’t use this build for hunting big game. Another rifle would serve that role.
This type of build is purely for close quarters battle against humans. A 62 gr bullet going at 2600 fps will suffice. Sure a longer barrel making that same 62 grain bullet going at 3100 fps would be better but how much better will it really be? Marginal at best better at a cost of handiness due to length. It is much easier to pie corners with a 10.5 inch barrel than it is to pie the same corner with a 16 to 20 inch barrel.
It’s a purpose built tool. Not a jack of all trades. A 16 inch barrel would fill the jack of all trades roll.
I thought the biggest issue with the shorter 10.5" barrels was cycling... Not caliber performance as velocity drop off is a known consideration and can be adjusted for (longer barrel, etc). Agree, that all I've seen is 11.5" being a minimum for balance between the issues. Great thread by the way 
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My personal requirements:
30 round magazines minimum, 60 round Magpul drum a +
Form factor as minimal as possible for lowest profile storage as possible. Carry case, bag ect absolutely cannot draw any attention.
Suppressor may be added later, but not for the intended role of low profile carry, high firepower self defense.
For the gun I want for this purpose, the Galil Ace "pistol" (barrel length 8.5") 7.62x39 is an option but-
A- limited ammo choice beyond cheap Russian FMJ
B- The 5.56 model of the Ace has a last round bolt hold, the other two do not.
The use of this firearm is to provide me stout self defense in the event I am blockaded on the road by rioters, I will not go down without a fight like Reginald Denny did.
PA state law permits for pistol braced "pistols" or SBRs to be carried loaded and at hand in a motor vehicle but company policy does not. If caught with it I would be subject to summary termination so discretion is of the utmost concern.
Manufactures are figuring out how to spec reliable shorter barrel lengths, but they won't run as smooth as the longer lengths. The 10.3 barrel length is considered to be at the edge of reliable function in an otherwise standard spec AR.I thought the biggest issue with the shorter 10.5" barrels was cycling... Not caliber performance as velocity drop off is a known consideration and can be adjusted for (longer barrel, etc). Agree, that all I've seen is 11.5" being a minimum for balance between the issues. Great thread by the way
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meketrefe
.450/400 Nitro Ex
I would go for 12 inches, not ideal but a big difference for the round.
So 5.56 is a mandatory requirement for you or others that can take the same round count are ok?
With a 12" gun the 6.8 with the 85 to 95gr loads will be the most powerful and effective of the popular calibers.
The Ace only comes in 8.5 and 16" lengths unfortunately.
I have both the 10.5 and the 11.5 barrel lengths in 223. I also have a 7.5 inch barrel in 223 and A couple of 10.5 Inch barrels in 300 Blackout. Definitely like the longer barrel in 223.
For what purpose though? Shooting paper?
Everything I have is dual purpose. Target and Personal/ home defense.
For home defense I use a pinned 14.5, plenty handy indoors.
I have everything from 7.5“ to 26” ARs just depends on what is closest at the time.
I just want the "pistol" for discrete truck gun duty.
Yeah I carried a 20” AR 308 For a truck gun for a while. If I need to pull something in my truck I am going to stop whatever it is that made me pull it. Of course it is not the type of gun you pull out while driving.
I need something I can put in a small bag and won't draw attention. I'd probably put my lunch and other daily items in there too.
Its not unusual for drivers to pack a small day bag after all.
I know you mention the ACE, but why not an 11.5" with LAW folder?
Because the Ace is a one stop shop, ready for role out of the box. And I really like the platform.
