3 MOA vs 6 MOA pistol dots

[71velle]

After seeing a thread about the Holston dot and a Youtube reviewer made the statement that a 2 MOA dot was best so I decided to try a back to back test to better form an opinion. I do have a 3 MOA dot on my G34 and a friend has a G34 with a 6 MOA dot both pistols are modified very similarly. Before testing both back to back I would have recommended a 6 MOA for most pistol applications. When I told my friend what I wanted to do(he owned both 6 and 3 dots) his first response was whats best depends on intended use. Then added that if it would be used outside the 6 MOA is the only way to fly. He shoots competition and outside he was having a real hard time find the dot and if the brightness is turned up it "stars out". I have not tried any outside personally.

I shot 20 rounds out of both pistols at 3 distances 10,15, and 25 yards. I did not shoot rapid fire so I can not comment on which one is faster for follow-up shots. At 10 yards no big difference but at 15 yards the size difference was very noticeable and even more so at 25 yards. At 25 yards the MOA dot covered the 4 inch target I was shooting at. When all said and done I did not have a preference either way. I know that is not the answer that anyone is wanting to hear. If shooting fast I think the larger dot would be an advantage and if shooting beyond 25 yards the 3 would be better. And of course the concern with the smaller dot in the bright daylight. It should also be noted that I have fired over 10 thousand rounds with my 3 MOA dot so definitely more familiar with it.

I am reluctant to post target pics since they may tell a story that is not accurate. At 15 yards I fired a mag with the 6 MOA pistol that was awful. Also the 6 MOA dot shot low for me and I did not adjust. I will post if you guys really want to see.

My advice if one is on the fence (or if used outside)is to get the 6 MOA. If the need to shoot over 25 yards consider the 3 MOA size.

Sorry I would not clear this up because I know it tough to choose dot size, especially if you dont have an opportunity to try both.

 

[togmaster]

I spent about an hour today researching this same issue and came up with basically the same info that you posted. Right now I'm shooting a league indoors. Max distance is 16 yds. I think the 6moa would probably be best but come summer I will be shooting outdoors to 50 yds. At 50 yds. half of the target would be covered with a 6moa dot. Really not sure how to go.

 

[71velle]

I spent about an hour today researching this same issue and came up with basically the same info that you posted. Right now I'm shooting a league indoors. Max distance is 16 yds. I think the 6moa would probably be best but come summer I will be shooting outdoors to 50 yds. At 50 yds. half of the target would be covered with a 6moa dot. Really not sure how to go.

Tough call. Its too bad the better units dont offer a switchable dot

 

[Edwardteach72]

Awesome right up, glad to see you had the chance to do this, and it does give more insight than you may think tbh

 

[Jem45472]

I haven't used a pistol dot, but from what you are saying I would look at the holosun hs507c.
The ability to change reticles seems a no brainier for pistol use. 2 moa dot for targets, large circle for defense or to find quickly.

 

[dsdmmat]

I prefer the circle dot 1MOA dot with a 65 mos circle around it (Bushnell hographic sight and Shield Ltd CQB)

 

[Acer-m14]

He shoots competition and outside he was having a real hard time find the dot and if the brightness is turned up it "stars out". I have not tried any outside personally.

i do say that's a eye problem .. you may never see it but he does ..

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/07/06/the-more-you-know-astigmatism/

 

[tapper3]

Something with a changeable recticle like that Holosun seems like it would be the best of both worlds but if one is stuck with a single reticle dot sight there is something to keep in mind...........

Once you get done sighting it in, the point of impact will always be in the center of the dot regardless of whether it is 2 MOA or 8 MOA.

So then the issue becomes how much of the target is obscured by the dot. And that is simply a matter of distance to the target.

I like the 8 MOA on a pistol. It covers less than 1" of the target at 10 yards. Roughly the size of a target paster. The head of an IPSC or IDPA target is 6x6".

It covers just 2" at 25 yards, 4" at 50 yards, and 8" at 100 yards is not an issue for me cuz I'm not likely to be taking 100 yard pistol shots. That's what rifles are for.

 

[Marine Cpl]

The bulk and losing the dot is the reason why I'll never get into this. My bright orange ameriglo front sight never washes away, blooms, or gets lost. Just saying.

 

[Edwardteach72]

The bulk and losing the dot is the reason why I'll never get into this. My bright orange ameriglo front sight never washes away, blooms, or gets lost. Just saying.

There is no real bulk, and losing the dot is due to lack of training and skill, that's on the shooter not the equipment

 

[Marine Cpl]

There is no real bulk, and losing the dot is due to lack of training and skill, that's on the shooter not the equipment

Right. So if you have to take a shot from an unconventional angle where is the dot no matter how hard you train? And there is bulk. Don't say that there isn't. You have a device the height of a stack of 10 quarters on top of your slide.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Right. So if you have to take a shot from an unconventional angle where is the dot no matter how hard you train? And there is bulk. Don't say that there isn't. You have a device the height of a stack of 10 quarters on top of your slide.

You must not understand how a dot works. In that situation you are taking about if you cant find a dot then you wouldn't be taking that shot anyways with irons because you wont be seeing them either

 

[Podmonkey]

2 MOA seems awfully fine for a pistol. Most rifle red dots are about 2 MOA. I think 3 MOA for a target gun and 6 MOA for any other purpose.

Right. So if you have to take a shot from an unconventional angle where is the dot no matter how hard you train? And there is bulk. Don't say that there isn't. You have a device the height of a stack of 10 quarters on top of your slide.

The idea of cowitnessing the irons with the RDS
is specifically for finding the dot. Get a rough sight picture with the irons and find the dot.
After a while you supposed to be able to just present naturally with the dot in view.

 

[Marine Cpl]

You must not understand how a dot works. In that situation you are taking about if you cant find a dot then you wouldn't be taking that shot anyways with irons because you wont be seeing them either

I know how the dot works. You have to present the handgun at just the right angle in relation to your eyes for you to pick it up. A little to the top or the sides and it's lost.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I know how the dot works. You have to present the handgun at just the right angle in relation to your eyes for you to pick it up. A little to the top or the sides and it's lost.

Just the right angle? No you present it in a good presentation, you are going to see the dot way faster than irons, and unlike irons that you have to line up a front and rear, as long as the dot is anywhere in the window you place said dot on target even if its upper most left corner of the glass that's where the round is going

 

[Marine Cpl]

Just the right angle? No you present it in a good presentation, you are going to see the dot way faster than irons, and unlike irons that you have to line up a front and rear, as long as the dot is anywhere in the window you place said dot on target even if its upper most left corner of the glass that's where the round is going

I don't know dude. My front sight is right there all the time and I never have to search for it. I spend hardly any time at all aligning it with a rear blacked out sight. It just aligns naturally and automatically for me. My front sight is like a neon sign screaming at me.

 

[Podmonkey]

Just the right angle? No you present it in a good presentation, you are going to see the dot way faster than irons, and unlike irons that you have to line up a front and rear, as long as the dot is anywhere in the window you place said dot on target even if its upper most left corner of the glass that's where the round is going

What's keeping me off this is the cost of the RDS itself which ain't cheap (the RMR is the only pistol RDS there is IMO)
plus the hassle of getting the slide milled.

 

[Edwardteach72]

What's keeping me off this is the cost of the RDS itself which ain't cheap (the RMR is the only pistol RDS there is IMO)
plus the hassle of getting the slide milled.

I completely understand this being a factor and there is a small learning curve yes but that can be overcome by doing what people should already be doing, practicing and dry fire and draw strokes

 

[MilesTeg]

Right. So if you have to take a shot from an unconventional angle where is the dot no matter how hard you train? And there is bulk. Don't say that there isn't. You have a device the height of a stack of 10 quarters on top of your slide.

Actually taking a shot form an unconventional position should be easier with a dot. I experimented with this when I first got mine and it was actually pretty cool what you can do. As for as loosing the dot, that's why advocate for suppressor height iron sights. I will not own a dot that I cant witness irons.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Speed & Precision: A Take on Pistol Red Dots vs. Irons | Breach Bang Clear

According to this guy, red dots were faster at distance but irons were faster at close up with a shot timer.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I don't know dude. My front sight is right there all the time and I never have to search for it. I spend hardly any time at all aligning it with a rear blacked out sight. It just aligns naturally and automatically for me. My front sight is like a neon sign screaming at me.

See so that right there means you wont be searching for a dot.. while I'm not a huge fan of Gabe Suarez (hes actually a pretty bad person but here is a good video on how quick learning a dot can be, well getting the basic down)


And then here is an even better video I forgot about

 

[Edwardteach72]

Speed & Precision: A Take on Pistol Red Dots vs. Irons | Breach Bang Clear

According to this guy, red dots were faster at distance but irons were faster at close up with a shot timer.

You also have to take into account how many thousands of rounds has that guy put through his gun with irons. And then factor in how many he has with a red dot. Its all about that small learning curve

 

[Edwardteach72]

I would highly recommend the 2nd video with Steve Fisher.

 

[71velle]

Most who dont like the dot are those with little or no experience with them. I know that the first time I used a dot in the weekly competition my scores increased dramatically, 3 other guys I know experienced the same results.

Finding the dot is no different than finding sights it is a learned skill, watch any new shooter with irons. I feel the dot has an advantage in off angle since you eye does not need to be in direct like like sights. If you up close with a dot, dont worry about finding it just see the target in the window and shoot.

Im not trying to say a dot is for everyone but definitely a tool that I find very useful. Compared to irons I believe the dot is an unfair advantage.

As a pervious post mentioned the possibility of having a problem with the smaller dot in the sun, I did talk to the guy who told me this to dig a little deeper. He discussed the issue with several other shooters and they have the same experience.

Again not trying to sell anyone on any dot size, just trying to share experiences in hope it may help some one make a decision.

 

[71velle]

Great discussion here guys!!!

below are the pics of the 10 and 25 yard targets, my shooting of the 15 yard target with the 6 moa was so bad it makes it an invalid comparison.

10 yard target. I screwed up by not shooting a warm-up mag and started with the 3 MOA dot on my pistol. My first mag of the night is usually not my best and this is no exception so in fairness I believe I could have had a tighter group with it. The second mag I shot with the 3 MOA was very good for me but the damage was already done. The 6 MOA dot group is good for me but was low, not my pistol and did not adjust it. I belive the difference in point of impact caused the bad shooting on my part at 15 yards. I think I was loosing focus because I was able to see how low the hits were.

25 yard target. The story changes since I only fired 10 rounds with each and the owner of the other G34 did the same. It seemed that the 6 MOA dot covered the 4 inch target sticker but that should not be the case. The target dots are light green and at that distance the contrast between the target and white paper is not enough making it harder to see the target, plus the lighting at that distance is not great making the problem worse.

I know this is not the best scientific test, but I do not think the smaller dot is any more precise at distances up to 25 yards.

 

[togmaster]

You say the 6 moa isn't better for accuracy but what about speed? Do you aquire the dot any faster?

 

[71velle]

You say the 6 moa isn't better for accuracy but what about speed? Do you aquire the dot any faster?

Many believe a smaller dot is better for accuracy and I did not feel that was the case. If I were shoot at very small targets maybe it would be different. My gut tells me I would be faster with the 6 MOA but I did not test for that. The guy with the other pistol has competed with both sizes and reports he feels like he is faster with the bigger dot.

 

[Edwardteach72]

I wish I still had the article or video (cant remember which one it was) were the individual brought up a great point. He mentions how most iron sights on a handgun are something like 8 moa

 

[Wraith]

I spent about an hour today researching this same issue and came up with basically the same info that you posted. Right now I'm shooting a league indoors. Max distance is 16 yds. I think the 6moa would probably be best but come summer I will be shooting outdoors to 50 yds. At 50 yds. half of the target would be covered with a 6moa dot. Really not sure how to go.

Both, obviously! Need me to keep an eye out for sales?

 

[MikeyCNY]

Cool thread, good to read something non-political for a change...

The only pistol-mounted Red Dot I have is my S&W .22 cal Victory with Vortex Venom. It is 3 MOA, seems good for target shooting, even in my amateur hands. I've not shot it too much outdoors, and as a .22 it is a range toy so the small dot works well for slow fire.

I'd like to try one in a full-size gun, but not sure if I want to drop that kind of money this year. If I'm remembering right, John Lovell (Warrior Poet) prefers 3 MOA for his carry gun.