5.56x45 effectiveness from short barrels.

[Podmonkey]

Any opinions? Parameters:
7-8" barrel, out to no more than 100 yards.
Purpose: Bugout kit and "Reginald Denny? Fuck that shit!"

 

[dsdmmat]

FMJs as long as they hit someone they are going to hurt em. Doesn’t matter how slow they are going compared to 20 inch barrels they are still moving fast enough to penetrate.

 

[Podmonkey]

FMJs as long as they hit someone they are going to hurt em. Doesn’t matter how slow they are going compared to 20 inch barrels they are still moving fast enough to penetrate.

Do you think a very short barreled 5.56 gun is still yet more effective than a 9mm carbine of similar dimensions?

 

[dsdmmat]

Do you think a very short barreled 5.56 gun is still yet more effective than a 9mm carbine of similar dimensions?

Yes

 

[Podmonkey]

So I ran the math based on the above data and I get around 703 ft/lb of energy. That is almost twice the energy of a typical 124gr +P 9mm.
In fact that is about what a stout 10mm puts out.
So, yeah I think that the 5.56x45 out of an 8" barrel is effective enough to be worthwhile at close range.

 

[Exonautic]

So I ran the math based on the above data and I get around 703 ft/lb of energy. That is almost twice the energy of a typical 124gr +P 9mm.
In fact that is about what a stout 10mm puts out.
So, yeah I think that the 5.56x45 out of an 8" barrel is effective enough to be worthwhile at close range.

major benefit i could see of the 9mm compared to the 5.56 is the ability to run subs out of a shorty can. You lose the penetration benefits of the higher velocity round but in a true bugout situation that will help to keep your pos. hidden. All depends on what you expect to have to deal with.

 

[Podmonkey]

major benefit i could see of the 9mm compared to the 5.56 is the ability to run subs out of a shorty can. You lose the penetration benefits of the higher velocity round but in a true bugout situation that will help to keep your pos. hidden. All depends on what you expect to have to deal with.

In the role I envision I would be keeping it loud.
Maximum compactness, discrete storage, and speed of deployment are the keys here. A can adds either length or time of deployment (attaching the thing) and there is the time and cost of the can as well.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Do you think a very short barreled 5.56 gun is still yet more effective than a 9mm carbine of similar dimensions?

A short barreled 5.56 will pinhole right through the target since it doesn't have the velocity to fragment. You are better off using a larger pistol caliber that won't make a ton of noise and flash. That's my opinion anyway.

The 50 gr TSX might fit the bill for the short barrel though.

 

[Podmonkey]

A short barreled 5.56 will pinhole right through the target since it doesn't have the velocity to fragment. You are better off using a larger pistol caliber that won't make a ton of noise and flash. That's my opinion anyway.

The 50 gr TSX might fit the bill for the short barrel though.

Well you know my favored 5.56 load.
.223 load actually.


I do read a lot of great things about the TSX though.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Well you know my favored 5.56 load.
.223 load actually.
View attachment 35621

I do read a lot of great things about the TSX though.

Do they make a low grained load? Because I think a mid-grained or high grained load would be counterproductive.

 

[Podmonkey]

Do they make a low grained load? Because I think a mid-grained or high grained load would be counterproductive.

There is a 55gr. I would have thought the opposite though.

 

[Uzi]

Make sure to test your short 5.56 barrel rifle without a suppressor unless you're going to be using one on a 7-8 inch barrel. They will add more velocity and the readings will be lower without one. Then sell it and buy a 300 blackout upper so you can have a better gun that was designed for shorter barrels and that sort of set up. Especially up to 200 yards it's pretty much better in every way. @ 100 yards it's a no brainer.

 

[Podmonkey]

Make sure to test your short 5.56 barrel rifle without a suppressor unless you're going to be using one on a 7-8 inch barrel. They will add more velocity and the readings will be lower without one. Then sell it and buy a 300 blackout upper so you can have a better gun that was designed for shorter barrels and that sort of set up. Especially up to 200 yards it's pretty much better in every way. @ 100 yards it's a no brainer.

Not going with an AR for this:

Also, after seeing that MAC chrony video, 300blk vs 9mm I was left pretty underwhelmed with the performance of the 300blk. Plus I already have a good sized stash of 5.56. Thousands of rounds worth.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Mk 18 Mod 0. Or do you want/need to be as short as 7/8"?

 

[meketrefe]

11 or 12 inches is what makes more sense in ANY CALIBER in the world.
The best balance between internal ballistics and compactness happens at those 11-12 inches.

Think of it as if you were talking to her about your Johnson. LOL

Scientists have concluded that there is no correlation between 2 extra inches and scoliosis so stop
being pussies with your barrels and also mitigate the risk of loosing a finger and/or an ear drum.

 

[Marine Cpl]

In case you don't know, SBR equals registration with permission needed to take out of your home state.

AR pistol is just a pistol that can be legally carried concealed on your person or in your vehicle fully loaded without registration.

 

[Podmonkey]

Mk 18 Mod 0. Or do you want/need to be as short as 7/8"?

I want the folding stock, I think the long stoke gas piston is the way to go with such a short barrel and I just really like the Galil Aces. My 308 is my favorite gun. The 5.56 version fixes my only real grip with the gun, it has a bolt hold open and it locks back on an empty magazine.

 

[Podmonkey]

In case you don't know, SBR equals registration with permission needed to take out of your home state.

AR pistol is just a pistol that can be legally carried concealed on your person or in your vehicle fully loaded without registration.

Yes, major reason for this gun. Comes with the pistol brace.
Also in both PA and I think WI you can't keep a loaded long gun in your vehicle but "pistols" are exempt from this. As are SBRs.

 

[meketrefe]

Since you like youtubing here this guy shows the amazing 77gr TMK from black hills ..
2572fps from a 11.5" barrel. Amazing round.
Ballistically talking it leaves the blackout in the dust even from short barrels.
As some of you know the black hills is popular with Seals and other special units.

 

[BDinPutnam]

Living in New Shitistan I am ignorant of Galils- can you get a brace and pistol it?

Otherwise you're smack dab in what @Willjr75 says, (unable to take it out of state easily, as a stamped SBR), no?

Eh, you answered already. Buy it.

 

[Podmonkey]

Since you like youtubing here this guy shows the amazing 77gr TMK from black hills ..
2572fps from a 11.5" barrel. Amazing round.
Ballistically talking it leaves the blackout in the dust even from short barrels.
As some of you know the black hills is popular with Seals and other special units.

Is is not shooting my spendy mk262 clones out of an 7.5" "pistol". Them are for my DD, once I scope it and make it my recce rifle.

 

[Podmonkey]

Living in New Shitistan I am ignorant of Galils- can you get a brace and pistol it?

Otherwise you're smack dab in what @Willjr75 says, (unable to take it out of state easily, as a stamped SBR), no?

Eh, you answered already. Buy it.

Yeth. That is a pistol brace pictured you know.
Comes from the factory like that. Well IWI's Harrisburg HQ that is.

 

[meketrefe]

All that I am saying is that 7"5 inches pistol makes little sense no matter what.
There is a coolness infatuation period followed by the realization that is not a good investment.
I am coming from the reality and pragmatic stand point. People love them while the show and tell is good
and then they hate them because they are not rational for that kind of platform.

For rifle rounds including supersonic work (most ammo and uses) you might not want anything smaller than those 11-12 inches.
For pistol rounds including supersonic work (most ammo and uses) you might not want anything larger than 12-13 inches but the BS laws say for carbines you need 16".

So 11-12 is where compactness and ballistics efficiency come together for any kind of round. After that is a matter of understanding
the limitations pros/cons of the specific round and given the role for the gun and round.

If the length of a supressor is a concern then choose a system that allows for a compact or even recessed design that
is not a problem with the most popular systems like AR, AK, hk, glock, sig, etc...

 

[Airborneguy]

I sold both of my 7.5” uppers. I got enough cool flame pics out of them. They sucked for everything else.

I now have a 10.5” 9mm that I absolutely love. What I sacrificed in ballistics I make up for in magazine interchangeability and uniformity of ammo. I have thousands of rounds of +p 9mm that I get for free.

 

[meketrefe]

I sold both of my 7.5” uppers. I got enough cool flame pics out of them. They sucked for everything else.

I now have a 10.5” 9mm that I absolutely love. What I sacrificed in ballistics I make up for in magazine interchangeability and uniformity of ammo. I have thousands of rounds of +p 9mm that I get for free.

good size. There is a substantial speed gain with many rounds while with 16" many rounds actually loose speed that is why a 9mm barrel
ideally should not be more than 13-14 inches. But they sell them in 16" and even longer when all one needs is a pinned sleeve to make
them rifle legal if one has to.

 

[Podmonkey]

All that I am saying is that 7"5 inches pistol makes little sense no matter what.
There is a coolness infatuation period followed by the realization that is not a good investment.
I am coming from the reality and pragmatic stand point. People love them while the show and tell is good
and then they hate them because they are not rational for that kind of platform.

For rifle rounds including supersonic work (most ammo and uses) you might not want anything smaller than those 11-12 inches.
For pistol rounds including supersonic work (most ammo and uses) you might not want anything larger than 12-13 inches but the BS laws say for carbines you need 16".

So 11-12 is where compactness and ballistics efficiency come together for any kind of round. After that is a matter of understanding
the limitations pros/cons of the specific round and given the role for the gun and round.

If the length of a supressor is a concern then choose a system that allows for a compact or even recessed design that
is not a problem with the most popular systems like AR, AK, hk, glock, sig, etc...

All armed forces issue some type of very short carbine, the AK74SU, known as the Krinkov on these shores, for example was intended for use by tanker crews for very close range self defense defense in very tight quarters. Also consider that highly inconspicuous storage could be a highly desirable trait for some people.
Ballistics are not the primary concern with these types of guns. Sometimes having something extremely compact, fast, handy and inconspicuous trumps all other concerns.
And from my research here, ballistically speaking from an energy level at least, the 5.56 offers sufficient energy for the task at hand.
I really don't think you appreciate the extreme constraints that vehicles and confined spaces place on the use of rifles. Even a 14.5" AR is rather cumbersome in a vehicle and a 12" SBR isn't too much better. And a folding stock can be very useful for vehicles. The idea with all such weapons is for use as a defensive tool.

 

[meketrefe]

Even a 14.5" AR is rather cumbersome in a vehicle and a 12" SBR isn't too much better. And a folding stock can be very useful for vehicles. The idea with all such weapons is for use as a defensive tool.

7.5" makes no sense if you step out of an actual pistol like a glock.
We can have our likes and dislikes but more times than not people end up hating a high power pistol in 7.5" because
so much is wasted in the form of blast and noise and lost performance.


12" They are in fact very popular and very useful like this MCX no matter how small your vehicle is.





When the shit gets real there is so much the people are willing to compromise or they simply bull-pup.

 

[Marine Cpl]

I sold both of my 7.5” uppers. I got enough cool flame pics out of them. They sucked for everything else.

I now have a 10.5” 9mm that I absolutely love. What I sacrificed in ballistics I make up for in magazine interchangeability and uniformity of ammo. I have thousands of rounds of +p 9mm that I get for free.

I agree. With a 33 Rd stick of your 9mm pistol ammo, there is nothing gained in my opinion on a 2 legger by going with a 7.5 inch .223. The concussion and blast isn't worth the slight ballistic edge you'd get from the .223 compared to pistol ammo unless we are talking armored targets which are extremely rare.

The same magazine and ammo is a huge plus in my opinion. 1 to 3 shots center mass in the chest will kill someone. They aren't going to die any deader than if it was from a .223 from a 7.5 inch barrel.

The 9mm submachine gun was the preferred CQB platform for decades with Tier 1 operators. And that was with ball rounds. But now all of a sudden, it isn't.

I think people overthink things. 9mm isn't enough when previously it was. Hogwash. Just think of all the people killed from PCC's in the Wild West with lever actions up to including Middle Eastern terrorists by Israeli Defense Forces with the Uzi and the same by Seals and Delta with the MP5.

People chase numbers on paper but those energy numbers mean nothing when vitals are struck.

For personal defense within 100 yards, I'd rather sacrifice the extended range that I'll never need or the body armor penetration for the ability to carry more ammo pound for pound in the same bag. Personal defense and military assaults are 2 different things.

 

[Podmonkey]

I agree. With a 33 Rd stick of your 9mm pistol ammo, there is nothing gained in my opinion on a 2 legger by going with a 7.5 inch .223. The concussion and blast isn't worth the slight ballistic edge you'd get from the .223 compared to pistol ammo unless we are talking armored targets which are extremely rare.

The same magazine and ammo is a huge plus in my opinion. 1 to 3 shots center mass in the chest will kill someone. They aren't going to die any deader than if it was from a .223 from a 7.5 inch barrel.

The 9mm submachine gun was the preferred CQB platform for decades with Tier 1 operators. And that was with ball rounds. But now all of a sudden, it isn't.

I think people overthink things. 9mm isn't enough when previously it was. Hogwash. Just think of all the people killed from PCC's in the Wild West with lever actions up to including Middle Eastern terrorists by Israeli Defense Forces with the Uzi and the same by Seals and Delta with the MP5.

People chase numbers on paper but those energy numbers mean nothing when vitals are struck.

We are talking about literally twice the energy for a 5.56 out of a 7.5" barrel vs the 9mm.

 

[Marine Cpl]

We are talking about literally twice the energy for a 5.56 out of a 7.5" barrel vs the 9mm.

Pod. If I shoot you in the chest with a burst from an MP5, your chest isn't going to quote energy numbers. Vitals will be struck and you will die.

You don't have such reservations with a pistol now do you? I'm sure you are 100 percent confident in your pistol's ability to kill someone with proper shot placement. That same shot placement is required for a .223 as with the 9mm. But for some reason, it isn't enough if it has a longer barrel and a 9mm when it was previously adequate from a 4 inch barrel.