Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
He's right though. I wouldn't want a zero that's 10 inches high at normal combat ranges.
50/200 Improved Battle Zero
- Thread starter ProgSpear
- Start date
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
I know, he's got a point. Sure was funny tho.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
Ok, so, you have to set a criteria. What size target do you want to be able to hit out to what range. Then you have to factor in the ballistics of the cartridge you shoot in your rifle, the bullet weight, bullet ballistic coefficient, and bullet velocity. Also, you need to know the dimension of the distance from the center of your scope to the centerline of your bore. One solution is a BDC reticle. With a BDC reticle, the math was done for you, to an extent...IF the scope height you choose is the same height the scope was designed to be mounted, and IF you are shooting a cartridge that the math was already done for, so that you can use the corresponding reticle marks at a predetermined range. I would always confirm those marks with some time on the range. It's important not to start splitting fine hairs, unless you're a benchrest and/or a competitive shooter, because tenths of an inch don't matter if your scope adjustments are 1/4 MOA.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
Lacking a BDC reticle, you can use your target size criteria to set a Maximum Point Blank Range. Example: my bolt-action rifle, cal. 30-06. I want to be able to hold dead on my target (whitetail deer vital area) without holding over/under, as far as possible. My criteria is an 8"circle. With my scope 1-1/2" above bore centerline, I can shoot a 150 gr spitzer bullet of avg BC @ 2910 fps. I sight in @ 25 yards and my MPB range is about 285 yards bc my bullet does not rise or fall more than 4" out to that range.
Edit: does not rise or fall more than 4" above or below my scope centerline (crosshairs).
Edit: does not rise or fall more than 4" above or below my scope centerline (crosshairs).
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I think the old Army Marksmanship standard of a man sized target out to 400 yards still makes good practical sense. 400 yards is the limit of what all but the best of the crack shots can hit at in field conditions. Fortunately the 5.56 is fairly flat out to this distance, and in the 77gr guise fairly effective too. The 50/200 does keep things pretty simple, basically just point and shoot, with the proper fundamentals in play of course.
Like I say worked great on the pop up range. And the 50-300 was a pretty challenging course of fire, varied and with time pressure and the need to efficiently traverse to and from targets. I think it would have been better if the order was randomized however. I ran a few 40/40 quals on the pop ups. Its a great feeling.
Also had days where they stuck me out on the qual range in the pouring ass rain and everyone was having so much trouble meeting the minimum standard they started issuing fully loaded mags instead of mags loaded to 20. Then two fully loaded mags.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
You seemed to want a more accurate point of impact at multiple ranges, unless I misunderstood. You asked what if he's in a fox hole. The size of your target, the ammo you use, and your choice of sights all determine you MPR.
Well I have two fairly similar rifles that are, or will be soon anyway, outfitted for somewhat different roles. The 14.5" NYGF build is the light, quick and dirty point and shoot gun with the red dot, say for 0-200 meters, simliar role and use as the M1 carbine, light, handy self defense.
The 16" DD will be getting a low power variable for more precision at 100-400 meters but still retaining point blank agility. An all rounder in other words, the SHTF gun, the bug out gun.
I wanna do an SPR build too, though I'd define it as a "Field Precision Rifle". In otherwords concessions will be made in terms of weight for accuracy but within reason leaving me with something usesful pit to 600 meters, and with high precision for target shooting but not overly cumbersome to haul around. 18" rifle length gas for that one.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
Understood. Every choice everyone makes in their armament and accessories is a compromise, unless you want to specialize a weapon, which is then only good for one purpose.
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
I would like one, but I don't have Uncles budget. Stuck with a dot for now.Or get a scope that has a crude one built in like an ACOG.
The ACOGS best days are behind it I think. Even our slow to change military is looking at low power variables. You can get a nice, perfectly servicable 1-6s for around $400 now. Thats not too bad I think.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
No they aren't. The military isn't going to put a foot long monstrosity on their M4's.
ProgSpear
.338 Win Mag
This is the scope I lust for. Still a bit rich for me, but...
TR25-C-200095 AccuPoint - Trijicon, Inc.
Who's to say? One of the scopes I'm considering is only 8.75" in overall length and 17oz in weight. That does not sound like a very monstrous optic to me. And there are smaller ones yet.
Marine Cpl
.577 Tyrannosaur.
You are saying the military is moving to scopes. I'm saying they aren't. They are too cumbersome. The Marines's ACOGS aren't going away for the near future. Hell, even the Army gave ACOGS to squad leaders within the last few years.
Yes that one is very high in the running for me too. I can swing the price, if I'd just start pinching the pennies even a lil' bit! Right now the leading option for me is this thing:
NX8™ 1-8x24 F1 | Riflescopes & Sport Optics | Nightforce Optics, Inc.
I like the weight, the size, the extra magnification, the bright illumination (if what I've read is true) and I'd wager the clarity is very good. FFP with a reticle that takes advantage of it is a plus. It is very rich though. But not unobtainable, street prices is supposed to get down to where the Raxor HD 1-6 is at.
Only negative is the eybox may be a little tight, which could be bad, I'd llike to take a look through one but they are still too new. Plus I dont see many Nightforce scopes in the stores I get to. But I think Outpost Armory in TN has a small selrction of NF scopes on the floor. They have a number of high end scopes on display, including the top range Leupolds and some Swarovskis too, among others. You generally don't find that kind of glass in the big box stores.
I said they are evaluating them. And they are. Frankly I don't look to what the military is fielding. They are just starting to look at Mlok rails for goodness sake. I can do more with a low power variable than a fixed power. I still like to shoot up close yet. or I'll blast clays or those self sealing targets on the berm, it would be nice to be able to dial the magnification back to track the targets.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
A wide field of view is always a plus for moving targets, and up close and personal engagements
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
Is the 16" DD a flat top?
Yes, came with a 15" Keymod Slim Rail as well.
Its that rilfe I posted in my scope thread earlier.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
I am just curious. Gathering info to check my ballistics program for MPBR on a 12" target, .223 Rem, 77 gr bullet, averaging BC of semi-pointed bullet and pointed bullet. Assuming since flat top and an objective lens less than 36 mm your scope height w/mt and rings will be in the neighborhood of 1-1/2 to maybe 1-3/4". What's the approximate velocity of the 77 gr bullets? 16" barrel you will lose approx 35 fps/inch over quoted ballistics which are usually 24", depending.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
How do you obtain a good cheek weld with the skinny ass comb on that rifle
Its broader than it looks, more than most collapsable stocks, wider even than an A2 fixed stock. Its similar to the Bravo Sopmod stocks.
I find that most AR stocks however provide a good cheek weld narrow or not. The Magpul CTR feels fine to me though it is somewhat narrower than the Danike Defense stock.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
I have a thin face with high cheek bones, therefore I require a taller comb height and a fatter comb. My jaw bone would be resting against it. I realize you guys love your AR's. For me, too low comb height, too light weight, for my precision shooting. In fairness, our standard issue was M16A1, with far too high aperture. Was never my fave rifle, even in military service. Loved the M14, but wouldn't want to carry it all day every day, in battle. But what a superior sniping rifle.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
So for shits and giggles, IMI 5.56x45mm, 77 gr Sierra MatchKing BTHP @ 2740 fps, bullet BC an excellent for caliber .372, scope height 1.5". First zero 19.5 yds, exactly 5" high at 150 yards, zeroed again @ 275.
SmallGameAddict
.308 Win
Pretty neat. Same solutions from different angle. Using a 30-06 with 150 gr bullet with a BC of .314 and a velocity of 2910 fps, and scope height 1.6" high (medium height rings), and a 7" target, it boils down to same thing-a 25 yard zero is a 250 yard zero, sight in 3" high @ 100 yards, MPBR is 291 yards. That formula has been in use for decades.
Edit: Midrange trajectory of +3.5" @ 150 yards
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FrankenCub
.338 Win Mag
My Holosun HS503G has the same reticle.
@thewheels
.308 Win
Picture a tube extending from the end of the barrel. You determine the size of the tube based on the size of the intended target.
For dropping woodchucks, I zero my 22 hornet at 50 and know that from the end of the muzzle to roughly 115 yards the trajectory will not be more than 1.5 inches from point of aim.
I only have to think about holdover past 115 yards.
Bulldog51
.40 S&W
