A conversation of abortion and Down Syndrome

[GOPerfect]

This subject is one that ticks me off a bit.

We have AMERICAN children starving in the streets, and some are saying fuck them not my problem. Meanwhile we sent over 40 BILLION every year in humanitarian aid to other countries, not a word about it.

The thought of any child in any country living in hunger and neglect bothers me greatly. But, being a patriotic American I believe we should be taking care of our own first!

I do not want my money to go to either the poor in Detroit or the ones in Africa.

Such an easy concept, can't afford your kids? Don't birth them!

Years ago, my wife and I stopped at one, my son, because I did not think I could have provided for more at the time. That is responsibility. These poor's, they want to keep chucking out babies? Their issue, not mine.

 

[GOPerfect]

I am thinking, a bit later tonight, I might go back to my original question and give my answers....

 

[71velle]

I do not want my money to go to either the poor in Detroit or the ones in Africa.

Such an easy concept, can't afford your kids? Don't birth them!

Years ago, my wife and I stopped at one, my son, because I did not think I could have provided for more at the time. That is responsibility. These poor's, they want to keep chucking out babies? Their issue, not mine.

Agreed mostly, we share the same family values...

This idea is the first step of a fix in my vision, reduce the number of people born in to poverty.
and the is an "ounce of prevention that yields a pound of cure".

 

[spat]

Now you hit a second nerve of mine.. The generational problems that we face in our country. The policy and programs in our country developed by both parties have been a a complete failure and a waste of resources.

"My own" starts with my family first, my country second, the rest of the world third.

I have no shame that I am a patriotic nationalist.

Fair enough, but I put my ideological allies before my geographical ones. Especially the ones who hate everything I hold dear.

I will not shed a tear because some leftists suffer under leftist policies, not even if they are kids who will grow up to vote for more of the same.

The conservatives who are stuck under leftist opposition have my sympathy, the leftists do not.

 

[nortatoga]

Not every perfect child is born perfect!

 

[spat]

Agreed mostly, we share the same family values...

This idea is the first step of a fix in my vision, reduce the number of people born in to poverty.
and the is an "ounce of prevention that yields a pound of cure".

Controlling birth rates is totalitarianism at it's worst.

But stopping our current policy of subsidizing irresponsible childbearing is not that.

 

[spat]

I do not want my money to go to either the poor in Detroit or the ones in Africa.

Such an easy concept, can't afford your kids? Don't birth them!

Years ago, my wife and I stopped at one, my son, because I did not think I could have provided for more at the time. That is responsibility. These poor's, they want to keep chucking out babies? Their issue, not mine.

What the poor, in Africa or Detroit, need is *not* someone else's money.

Mostly what they need is the elimination of policies designed to trap them in a cycle of dependence.

Throwing money at the problem is like trying to solve alcoholism by subsidizing the cost of whisky.

 

[GOPerfect]

We, once again, have gotten off track a bit. But, that is what makes this fun.

I used to be dead set against abortion. I have grown in mind and spirit over the years, well, maybe just a little bit.

I used to think that it was wrong, unethical and immoral. Those thoughts have been altered.

I hear some people say, no abortion except rape and incest. What about for the heath of the mother? What about the health of the child? What if, during the sonograms, it was noticed that the brain of the fetus was located outside of the head? A friend of a friend of mine birthed a child about ten years ago. The baby's brain had developed outside of the skull. The baby was born, the baby, within two months of his birth had had 12 surgeries. The child lived about 6 more months and died. The parents were devastated to say the least.

I have a co-worker that has two children, both with severe autism. One child is 17 and the other is 13. They have one other child that is healthy. He is 15. Because of the severe autism in two children, their lives are not easy nor are they normal. No normal lives in the home. They have not had a vacation in 16 years. They cannot take the children away from home to really enjoy a vacation. The coworker of mine works as much overtime as possible so his wife can stay at home taking care of the children, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He works, some weeks, 80 hours a week.

I have seen some really horrible birth defects in my lifetime. I do not wish what some of these parents go through on a daily basis upon anyone.

This is a topic that seems really easy to sit back and say one is against abortion, but I gotta wonder, how many of the anti's would be willing to trade their lives with people that have these severely handicapped children? I wonder how many would be willing to donate up to half of their paychecks to help support these families. What happens to these children when the parents are too old to take care of them? What happens to them when the parents die?

I will discuss more later.

 

[71velle]

Controlling birth rates is totalitarianism at it's worst.

But stopping our current policy of subsidizing irresponsible childbearing is not that.

Bravo!! You identified the slippery slope..

Controlling birth rates does not have mean totalitarianism.
For example making birth control free for all and encouraged, not mandated would reduce birth rate.

Birth control is cheep, but when the uninsured person in poverty goes to the hospital for the baby to be delivered who pays the bill? That is not cheep and just the start.

Yes agreed on subsidizing the irresponsible!!! Our current systems in my opinion encourages people to stay on it rather than incentivising them to get off it. Another big fix in my vision.

 

[Robin]

Stokholm Syndrome.
Robin

 

[71velle]

We, once again, have gotten off track a bit. But, that is what makes this fun.

I used to be dead set against abortion. I have grown in mind and spirit over the years, well, maybe just a little bit.

I used to think that it was wrong, unethical and immoral. Those thoughts have been altered.

I hear some people say, no abortion except rape and incest. What about for the heath of the mother? What about the health of the child? What if, during the sonograms, it was noticed that the brain of the fetus was located outside of the head? A friend of a friend of mine birthed a child about ten years ago. The baby's brain had developed outside of the skull. The baby was born, the baby, within two months of his birth had had 12 surgeries. The child lived about 6 more months and died. The parents were devastated to say the least.

I have a co-worker that has two children, both with severe autism. One child is 17 and the other is 13. They have one other child that is healthy. He is 15. Because of the severe autism in two children, their lives are not easy nor are they normal. No normal lives in the home. They have not had a vacation in 16 years. They cannot take the children away from home to really enjoy a vacation. The coworker of mine works as much overtime as possible so his wife can stay at home taking care of the children, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He works, some weeks, 80 hours a week.

I have seen some really horrible birth defects in my lifetime. I do not wish what some of these parents go through on a daily basis upon anyone.

This is a topic that seems really easy to sit back and say one is against abortion, but I gotta wonder, how many of the anti's would be willing to trade their lives with people that have these severely handicapped children? I wonder how many would be willing to donate up to half of their paychecks to help support these families. What happens to these children when the parents are too old to take care of them? What happens to them when the parents die?

I will discuss more later.

100% Thank you for sharing!!!

 

[GOPerfect]

Stokholm Syndrome.
Robin

Stockholm syndrome is a psychological response. It occurs when hostages or abuse victims bond with their captors or abusers. This psychological connection develops over the course of the days, weeks, months, or even years of captivity or abuse.

 

[Robin]

You mean like the average American?
Robin

 

[Grimscale]

"Abortion" is a necessary medical procedure which, like many other medical procedures, has been abused by some and politicized by many.
The calls for a total ban on the procedure are just as egregious as the calls for total disarmament of the population. While not an enumerated Right, as the 2A is, medical procedures should, and do, have greater weight than "I want" situations. Such procedures should not be outright banned for all based on the opinion or religion of some. If you don't want to utilize a procedure, then don't.
Calls of "but I don' wanna pay for it!" is just a cop-out. YOU aren't paying for it any more than YOU are paying someone else's car insurance. But in one aspect I agree with the statement. NO Federal/State monies should be used to pay for someone else's medical procedures.

I've always felt that compromise could be had here, if people would just get off their high horses and listen.

First trimester: do whatever you want. I understand that accidents happen, condoms break, family members locked in quarantine too long have urges... uh, anyway... It's your body you are fucking up. If it is so damned important to have unprotected sex, you have 3 months to decide you were an idiot and do something about it before your crotchfruit becomes a burden on society. And no crying to us if you can't get pregnant later on because you vacuumed out your womb too many times.

Second trimester: You've had 3 months to make a decision. Now that little tyke is starting to look like a little tyke, starting to develop organs, nerves, brain, etc. Now it is time to sit down and have a really serious discussion with your physician. And that physician's opinion is going to be necessary to have the procedure.

Third trimester: It's been 6 months. By now you should really know what you want. So spiteful ex-wives or lazy people need not apply. Unless your life is in immediate danger or the fetus has expired, forget it. You'll need multiple OBGYN, Pediatric, and basic medical doctors to sign off on your procedure. Don't like it? Be a responsible adult!


And while we're discussing the millions of children starving on the streets... maybe society shouldn't have made it a requirement that you be borderline filthy rich to adopt.
The wife and I looked at the possibility of adoption. We were told "you must have at least $10,000 liquid capital before we'll even look at you". We had a stable home, the ability to put food on the table, are responsible adults... yet we couldn't open our home to a child because we weren't one of the ones who just happen to have money lying around doing nothing. Good job saving a child, Mrs Social Worker.

 

[Bob]

Duffy: Tolerating Eugenics Against Down Syndrome Babies Is Evil

Evita Duffy joined Fox News' 'Tucker Carlson Tonight' on Friday to criticize an article in The Atlantic endorsing abortions of babies with Down Syndrome.

thefederalist.com

This seems to be in the news a bit more than in the past.

In Danmark, about 95% of all fetuses with DS are aborted. Most of the Scandinavian Countries as well as others have numbers similar to this.


Like everything else in life, I have my opinions and my thoughts. I was wondering what others think and feel about this....

My views on abortion are mine and mine alone, forged of my faith and my many years watching life being brought into this world, leaving this world, and all the moments in between. They are deeply private, and I will not discuss them here. It is one of the few topics that, for me, is verboten. But since I like to tell stories to make points related to the subject at hand, even if only tangentially related...

A couple of years ago, I ran a 5k to benefit the activities fund for the high school from which I graduated. The race concluded with festivities that included a band, food trucks, wine tasting, and assorted other local interests.

While I was kicked back in a lawn chair, listening to the mediocre singer, and blowing the froth off a couple, I observed a young lady of approximately 10-12 years of age. Based upon her outward physical appearance, one could surmise that she had Down Syndrome. She was right up in front of the stage, dancing (very poorly) and singing (even worse) without a care in the world. It was just her and the music. She didn't care about the people watching her. She didn't care about any of the issues that plague our society today, whatever you perceive those issues to be at any given moment.

Sometimes, one has to wonder what it would be like to return to such innocence. And sometimes, one has to wonder who has the real genetic defect.

 

[dsdmmat]

I find abortion to be a personal choice to be made by the person/persons involved and their doctor.

I find mandatory abortion and forced sterilization by government edict to be an overreach of power by a fascist government.

In any case it is not my place to tell people how to live their lives and it is not the government’s place to pay for the poor decisions people make.

 

[tirwin1]

I am the sibling of a disabled sister. Her needs dominated every moment of my family’s life. My sister is blind and not fully developed emotionally and physically. My mother told me she wished my sister would die. My sister’s twin did die at birth.
My father and mother had precious little time for me and my other 4 siblings. Unfortunately for the sister just older than me, was designated as the lifetime companion and caregiver to my disabled sister , a role she still fulfills as both my parents died decades ago. Her life has been forfeited to care for her sister. Sainthood is not worth it.

Thanks for sharing this difficult story. These types of stories seem to be a rarity to me. Almost every story I read about a child with disability is a positive one where the family talks about how great life with their child is. For the most part I believe them. I have a friend with a special needs child and I sense no bitterness on his part at all. Yet there have to be plenty of situations where the burden is so great the family members question the decision to keep the child or even resent it. It must be a very difficult existence.

 

[GOPerfect]

I find abortion to be a personal choice to be made by the person/persons involved and their doctor.

I find mandatory abortion and forced sterilization by government edict to be an overreach of power by a fascist government.

In any case it is not my place to tell people how to live their lives and it is not the government’s place to pay for the poor decisions people make.

Thank you for answering the original question that was asked. I think one of the first to do that. I was more looking for an answer to the issue of government sponsored testing and procedure; not so much each stance on abortion.

I was looking for more thoughts and less feeling.

 

[Robin]

 

[Cleck]

Such an easy concept, can't afford your kids? Don't birth them!

This may be harsh, but I think this overall should be the message. You know what, shit happens and at least there's an option. I'm not really interested in commentary about abusing it, the state paying for it and all that, that's not what I'm talking about. With regard to GOP's original post, I think for some prospective parents, maybe something happens and you have to make a choice. Maybe you know you won't be a great parent to a kid that will need extra money or care, maybe you can't afford it. Maybe you only knew you could raise a kid if it didn't come out of the womb with a serious issue like that? Not everyone is going to agree w/ that and I understand and don't care, but I think it's more responsible to end it there than to do what others are afraid of doing - taking care of it forever using social programs and everything else. I think it's more responsible to be like, "I'm not going to be a great parent to a kid who has special needs, I just can't" than it is to bring it into the world because you think birthing it is the right choice. I don't think it's an easy choice either, despite what some may think.

 

[spat]

"Abortion" is a necessary medical procedure which, like many other medical procedures, has been abused by some and politicized by many.
The calls for a total ban on the procedure are just as egregious as the calls for total disarmament of the population. While not an enumerated Right, as the 2A is, medical procedures should, and do, have greater weight than "I want" situations. Such procedures should not be outright banned for all based on the opinion or religion of some. If you don't want to utilize a procedure, then don't.
Calls of "but I don' wanna pay for it!" is just a cop-out. YOU aren't paying for it any more than YOU are paying someone else's car insurance. But in one aspect I agree with the statement. NO Federal/State monies should be used to pay for someone else's medical procedures.

I've always felt that compromise could be had here, if people would just get off their high horses and listen.

First trimester: do whatever you want. I understand that accidents happen, condoms break, family members locked in quarantine too long have urges... uh, anyway... It's your body you are fucking up. If it is so damned important to have unprotected sex, you have 3 months to decide you were an idiot and do something about it before your crotchfruit becomes a burden on society. And no crying to us if you can't get pregnant later on because you vacuumed out your womb too many times.

Second trimester: You've had 3 months to make a decision. Now that little tyke is starting to look like a little tyke, starting to develop organs, nerves, brain, etc. Now it is time to sit down and have a really serious discussion with your physician. And that physician's opinion is going to be necessary to have the procedure.

Third trimester: It's been 6 months. By now you should really know what you want. So spiteful ex-wives or lazy people need not apply. Unless your life is in immediate danger or the fetus has expired, forget it. You'll need multiple OBGYN, Pediatric, and basic medical doctors to sign off on your procedure. Don't like it? Be a responsible adult!


And while we're discussing the millions of children starving on the streets... maybe society shouldn't have made it a requirement that you be borderline filthy rich to adopt.
The wife and I looked at the possibility of adoption. We were told "you must have at least $10,000 liquid capital before we'll even look at you". We had a stable home, the ability to put food on the table, are responsible adults... yet we couldn't open our home to a child because we weren't one of the ones who just happen to have money lying around doing nothing. Good job saving a child, Mrs Social Worker.

There shouldn't be laws about abortion.

Just a specific legal definition for when a new human life begins.

After that is clear, there are already plenty of laws about when you may end one.

 

[Cleck]

"Abortion" is a necessary medical procedure which, like many other medical procedures, has been abused by some and politicized by many.

Third trimester: It's been 6 months. By now you should really know what you want. So spiteful ex-wives or lazy people need not apply. Unless your life is in immediate danger or the fetus has expired, forget it. You'll need multiple OBGYN, Pediatric, and basic medical doctors to sign off on your procedure. Don't like it? Be a responsible adult!

Correct, people hear abortion and immediately get political about it. If you look it up, the term means that it's just ending a pregnancy. The fetus does not still need to be alive prior to this. It is defined as "the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus " I bolded the important part because I don't think a lot of people realize this. Not every 3rd trimester abortion is a doc slicing a woman open, yanking the baby out and beheading it like I keep reading about from various fanatical posters on social media. Or maybe everyone knows this and chooses to ignore it to make it political, I dunno. If your fetus dies before you can birth it, the process of removing the dead fetus before the due date is an abortion. This happens and sometimes women live in states where 3rd trimester abortions are not legal, so they're stuck carrying it unless they can go to another state that allows them. I don't know about you guys, but women are emotional enough, I would not want to have to deal w/ the extra emotions of carrying a dead fetus at all.

 

[Grimscale]

After that is clear, there are already plenty of laws about when you may end one.

The problem is the grey areas.

What happens when the choice has to be made between the fetus and the mother?
who decides when "life" begins? How is it determined? What is "life"?

Some here state that "life" begins at conception. Others dispute this suggesting "life" is when it becomes an independent entity able to survive outside the womb. (I was going to write "live in its own" but we've seen adult aged individuals who are unable to live on their own - ie: antifa).

Sadly, it is when these grey areas manifest that people lose reason.

 

[spat]

The problem is the grey areas.

What happens when the choice has to be made between the fetus and the mother?
who decides when "life" begins? How is it determined? What is "life"?

Some here state that "life" begins at conception. Others dispute this suggesting "life" is when it becomes an independent entity able to survive outside the womb. (I was going to write "live in its own" but we've seen adult aged individuals who are unable to live on their own - ie: antifa).

Sadly, it is when these grey areas manifest that people lose reason.

That is why the law needs to create a clear unambiguous definition.

First heartbeat ?, second trimester ?, third trimester ? Maybe it would even be some cognitive developmental stage *after* birth.

Birth seems pretty arbitrary to me. That is based on the physical location of the child and not any milestone of development.

Whatever the definition we pick we need to stick with it and not allow it to waver because of convenience. If a human life begins at the second trimester, that doesn't change just because of some defect.

Once you can clearly say "this is tissue, and this is a person" then 99% of the mess goes away.

After that milestone the mother and child would be treated as conjoined twins for legal and medical decision-making.

Before, it would be treated like a woman with an unwanted mole.

In some messy cases the child might even be entitled to a legal advocate separate from the mothers.

No specific laws about abortion would be necessary. It would just be another elective medical procedure, right up until it became murder. In cases where the mothers life was threatened it would be treated as any other medical triage situation where the mother and child were considered equals.

This isn't so much a scientific question as it is a philosophical one (that needs to be informed by science obviously).

But the most important thing (and what we are completely lacking right now) is consistency.

 

[Saltwater60]

We, once again, have gotten off track a bit. But, that is what makes this fun.

I used to be dead set against abortion. I have grown in mind and spirit over the years, well, maybe just a little bit.

I used to think that it was wrong, unethical and immoral. Those thoughts have been altered.

I hear some people say, no abortion except rape and incest. What about for the heath of the mother? What about the health of the child? What if, during the sonograms, it was noticed that the brain of the fetus was located outside of the head? A friend of a friend of mine birthed a child about ten years ago. The baby's brain had developed outside of the skull. The baby was born, the baby, within two months of his birth had had 12 surgeries. The child lived about 6 more months and died. The parents were devastated to say the least.

I have a co-worker that has two children, both with severe autism. One child is 17 and the other is 13. They have one other child that is healthy. He is 15. Because of the severe autism in two children, their lives are not easy nor are they normal. No normal lives in the home. They have not had a vacation in 16 years. They cannot take the children away from home to really enjoy a vacation. The coworker of mine works as much overtime as possible so his wife can stay at home taking care of the children, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. He works, some weeks, 80 hours a week.

I have seen some really horrible birth defects in my lifetime. I do not wish what some of these parents go through on a daily basis upon anyone.

This is a topic that seems really easy to sit back and say one is against abortion, but I gotta wonder, how many of the anti's would be willing to trade their lives with people that have these severely handicapped children? I wonder how many would be willing to donate up to half of their paychecks to help support these families. What happens to these children when the parents are too old to take care of them? What happens to them when the parents die?

I will discuss more later.

I agree as well if it’s rape, incest, or for the health of the mother. The true health of the mother like her life is in danger not ph o just don’t really want this inconvenience. I’m not saying I’m not for it in extreme cases of babies life but I think if at all possible babies should be born. We learn so much from these treatments.
I do feel for your coworker but there are things that can be done to take a vacation. There are homes that you can place children in with special needs to get a break. I’m not saying it would be easy to do but it is possible. I also commend him greatly for caring for his children in the way he is and working extra for that. That’s what’s missing from a lot of people in the USA Today. A good work ethic. It’s not easy.
My sons problems are minor in comparison but he has issues and we struggle with him. His first 4-5 years of life he was in and out of the hospital and ER visits. He’s has 11-12 ear authors and we’re not done. He’s a great kid and he brings me much joy. We fish and hike and catch critters together. I wouldn’t change it for the world and I mean that. He still has many learning issues and sever ADHD. I essentially have to hold his hand to get homework done and he’s almost 14. We just spent $5,500 on vision therapy because he has a visual processing disorder as well. When he’s done growing his ear drum will get rebuilt again. I think this will be number 4. Can’t get his ear wet or he will get a sever infection internally since his ear drum is wide open. Again I completely acknowledge many have it much worse than I do and my so does.
We stopped at two kids because we knew with him we were at our limits. Now we could handle another but my kids are too old.
I know some one recently who went through a horrible north process. Much the same as you’re talking about. The baby lives a few days I think and passed away. They did surgery in uterus and I think that’s amazing. It’s horrible for sure but I do believe most things happen for a reason.

 

[dsdmmat]

Moved this to politics and law based on the OP question about the role of government in this whole mess.

 

[spat]

I agree as well if it’s rape, incest, or for the health of the mother. The true health of the mother like her life is in danger not ph o just don’t really want this inconvenience. I’m not saying I’m not for it in extreme cases of babies life but I think if at all possible babies should be born. We learn so much from these treatments.
I do feel for your coworker but there are things that can be done to take a vacation. There are homes that you can place children in with special needs to get a break. I’m not saying it would be easy to do but it is possible. I also commend him greatly for caring for his children in the way he is and working extra for that. That’s what’s missing from a lot of people in the USA Today. A good work ethic. It’s not easy.
My sons problems are minor in comparison but he has issues and we struggle with him. His first 4-5 years of life he was in and out of the hospital and ER visits. He’s has 11-12 ear authors and we’re not done. He’s a great kid and he brings me much joy. We fish and hike and catch critters together. I wouldn’t change it for the world and I mean that. He still has many learning issues and sever ADHD. I essentially have to hold his hand to get homework done and he’s almost 14. We just spent $5,500 on vision therapy because he has a visual processing disorder as well. When he’s done growing his ear drum will get rebuilt again. I think this will be number 4. Can’t get his ear wet or he will get a sever infection internally since his ear drum is wide open. Again I completely acknowledge many have it much worse than I do and my so does.
We stopped at two kids because we knew with him we were at our limits. Now we could handle another but my kids are too old.
I know some one recently who went through a horrible north process. Much the same as you’re talking about. The baby lives a few days I think and passed away. They did surgery in uterus and I think that’s amazing. It’s horrible for sure but I do believe most things happen for a reason.

I disagree about the rape and incest being an exception.

Either it is a child or it is an unwanted piece of the mother. How it got there is irrelevant.

We don't allow infanticide in cases of rape or incest, if we decide than an 8 month old foetus is a person, why would you be allowed to murder them because of a circumstance they had no control over ?

 

[GOPerfect]

I disagree about the rape and incest being an exception.

Either it is a child or it is an unwanted piece of the mother. How it got there is irrelevant.

We don't allow infanticide in cases of rape or incest, if we decide than an 8 month old foetus is a person, why would you be allowed to murder them because of a circumstance they had no control over ?

See, now we get a bit deeper. Is the fetus less because of how it got there?

Also, the health of the mother? Physical or mental health? Deeper and deeper we can get.

Or, like in the Op, do we allow the government to get involved?

 

[71velle]

I disagree about the rape and incest being an exception.

Either it is a child or it is an unwanted piece of the mother. How it got there is irrelevant.

We don't allow infanticide in cases of rape or incest, if we decide than an 8 month old foetus is a person, why would you be allowed to murder them because of a circumstance they had no control over ?

These are personal opinions.

The people who only agree when the exceptions are meet feel the mother did not have a choice and or the circumstances could put the mother in a position to not love the child and or the child we always be a reminder of a traumatic event.

 

[Saltwater60]

I disagree about the rape and incest being an exception.

Either it is a child or it is an unwanted piece of the mother. How it got there is irrelevant.

We don't allow infanticide in cases of rape or incest, if we decide than an 8 month old foetus is a person, why would you be allowed to murder them because of a circumstance they had no control over ?

I largely don’t disagree with your reasoning and it is a life at any point and no matter how it got there. I guess my point is for rape and incest it could do more harm to the mother and cost the mother her life. I agree it would be best to carry the child and give them up for adoption but that’s a hard call.
I also think part of it I just personal responsibility and rape and some cases of incest remove that part for me where it’s not the mothers fault.