Acceptable accuracy

[Tisto]

Start with great components...

Seirra match kings
Lapua brass
Varget or High end powder

BASIC STARTING POINT
your looking for low extreme spread numbers first, then adjusting bullet depth/ length for small groups, Then center the group.

Did you actually read any of this thread ??

I' talking about a 7mm Remington Magnum.

Sierra Match Kings are designed for killing paper targets. They are NOT designed with terminal ballistics in mind. They are CERTAINLY not designed to be used on dangerous game.

Varget, although a fine propellant for cartridges such as the .22-250 and .223, is FAR too fast to be used in the 7mm RM.

???

 

[Tisto]

A one hole group is more about the shooter than the rifle.

REALLY ????????? YOU'RE GOING TO SPEW THAT SHIT ???


so, I suppose all rifles shoot 1-hole groups, it's just the person pulling the trigger.......um, No.

 

[Phauxtoe]

Wow you’re such a Literal douche bag!
Sorry for the typo I meant game kings.
But my point is top-tier Components, following the GIGO principal.

did someone hurt your feelings, OK you’re the best shot in the world and no one could shoot your gun better than you. You are squeezing out all the potential of all your guns.

I’m not saying that any shooter can shoot one hole with every gun, I’m saying that not many shooters can shoot one hole with a one hole gun. Do you understand the difference?

 

[Podmonkey]

This is getting to my point, albeit in a roundabout way. Hornady reloading book says the 7mm RM is capable of fine accuracy. Lyman has stated similar. The problem lies in the fact that no-one will define what is "fine accuracy" or any similar description. If my 6mm PPC was shooting 1.3" groups at 100 yards, I would call it a POS and get rid of it. By the same token, if I got 1.5" groups out of my slug gun, I would think I had won the lottery.

Yeah, I get it. This is a hunting rifle. It's very light weight. It has a skinny barrel profile. I don't expect it to compete with my 6PPC in terms of accuracy. The question is, where do we draw the line as to what one can reasonably expect.

I've taken a lot of game. This rifle is intended to ETHICALLY drop big game, some of which is dangerous, and all of which will be large or very large, and much of which may be at extended distances. The 7mm RM is quite capable of dropping any animal that walks this continent. It may not be my first choice for some animals such as the big bears ( brown and polar ) but it is in fact capable of the task.

With factory ammo, I have seen a HUGE fluctuation in groups. As stated prior, the factory ammo that produced the best groups from this rifle is the Barnes Vortex 160 TSX BT. That ammo will shoot roughly the same as the 20-shot group of my reloads above. Other ammo, such as the Winchester Super X 150's consistantly shoots a 4- 1/2" group at 100 yards. I find that wholly unacceptable. Other factory ammo shoots worse than that !

I just wonder if I should be happy with the results above or if I should continue to look for something better that may or may not exist.

Again, for a hunting rifle shooting 20 round averaged groups I think the accuracy you are getting is outstanding. Most people will cherry pick tge best 3 round group they got on the day and parade it around the internet as if it were a realistic representation of their rifle's performance, or of their ability as a shooter. Your shooting schedule is far more rigorous and comprehensive than most and 1.3" averaged groups I think are really quite excellent and I think you should be well satisfied, particularly with it being a hunting rifle and not some 20lb bench gun.

 

[meketrefe]

Tisto,
I understand the concern.
forget about reloading books, they are all over the place with arbitrary and even erroneous information.
I am at work now but later we can talk and hopefully bring you to a happy place.
stay tuned...

 

[meketrefe]

Tisto,
you mentioned potential long range and even large game.
So lets dissect together one thing a the time.

First the 7mm RemMag is a extremely good and versatile cartrige just because of the amazing assortment of bullets.
On average, same cases, same weight ranges it many 7mm calibers beat the 30 caliber at almost everything including long range.
The only practical advantage of the 30 caliber is when extra wounding is needed with the heaviest bullets the 30 has to offer that
are also harder to master than the 7mm RM.
The original idea was for the 7RM to offer a wide range of popular loads with comparable recoil as a heavy 30-06.

One of the issues I see with the 7RM and other magnums is the proliferation of super light rifles and thin barrels that is not helping the recoil,
accuracy and even range if they are shorter. Many are great rifles and versatile but perhaps not the first choice for long range where
these magnums can use a nr.2 or nr.3 profile 26" barrel.

In any case there are many great bullets, powders and loads that make the 7mm so versatile.

Ok so now the discussion at hand.

Accuracy:

Around 1MOA is expected of many modern rifles. That can be 0.8 MOA as well as 1.2MOA, it doesn't matter.
The bullets, charge, and recoil are also a factor in many magnums and some are hard to master.
I had to abandon the 338 lapua magnum because 1) I could not master the round even prone. 2) To shoot a lot It was hurting in the pocket.
So I had to be realistic and return to the Winmag and the 7mmRM with the 7mm being my favorite for all around. There are still a couple of
things the winmag can do better but perhaps never needed by 99% of the folks.

So what accuracy is really needed? It depends on the animal and the distance and at some point the accuracy might not be the first
concern if the bullet doesn't have the required killing power and characteristics for optimal terminal effect.

Deer presents a kill zone of 8-11 inches. Lets say a medium deer. What you need is to put a bullet in there with maximum speed
and no huge penetration is needed. Any magnum is too much for deer specially smaller at average ranges so milder / reduced loads
could be used and even a 2moa will assure kills out to 400-500 yards. It does a number on deer so you might wan to watch out
to keep meat saving shots.

For large deer might want to choose a stouter bullet and faster charge but in the same 500 yards range the 7 rem mag is devastating.

The kill zone for Elk is between 12-14 inches so in the worse case of 2" group one could go for lets say 600-700 yards shots but there
are some other much larger concerns at those distances starting with the bore, any bore below 338. More on that later.
For Elk out west you might want to look into heavier and stouter and bonded bullets that can assure penetration and wounding up to
600-700lbs that is the maximum weight for the 7mm to assure ethical hunting.
In real life and to be safe and provide maximum wounding in such animals one would have to keep impact speeds in the 400yards
before they fall below the 2200fps threshold like the amazing accubond or the partition that is even better possibly very good out to
450 yards assuring both massive shock and broad and deep wounding.

Killing power

A sumation of shock and broad wounding. this means speed at impact for proper activation and broad wounding

Could one take longer shots? have people taken longer shots? you bet, but the 7mm is not designed for large game or the high end
medium game at extra long range. A goat at long range with a VLD, fragmentation is one think but a large Elk male is another.

Could it take large bears and Moose? Yes it can. natives are allowed to take polar bears with 7mm, 308 winchester and 30-06 but
should they? Guided hunts will not allow it and will lean towards 338 winmag and 375 that are favorites.
Something even as pedestrian as a 35 whelen could also do those better at moderate distances just because the momentum
and broader wounding.

As you can see you have more than plenty of accuracy even in worse case but there is nothing wrong with going for shots closer
to 1MOA and further from 2MOA. Trying different loads and different bullets with the animals always in mind and matching
bullet designs to animal and weight will bring you closer and more confident.

I am sure you will find more loads close to the 1MOA than the 2MOA, specially good ones.

Challenges (with many magnums)

The main reason for missing game including poorly wounding or even slow agonizing deaths at the other side of a valley or
a ravine are:

Not having good range finding and correction methods.
Not practicing enough including in challenging conditions (including not being fit and out of air)
Not knowing the animal, bullets and limitations.

A tad more MOA, less MOA is less relevant if you are super comfortable with the caliber and shooting it and can
predict impacts one after another (lots of practice)

What is your rifle model? I suggested 1 extra lb. of deadblow weight in the stock because 1lb is nothing but a magnum can enjoy that.
Also if you do not care too much about the looks there are some tricks to tame harmonics in thinner barrels like a fiberglass or aluminum
wrap that one can dress up with camo anyway. Not for the chrome and ebony purists, but it works.

Also get a soft recoils pad and a nice comb raise to put your shoulder as much as possible in line with the bore. All good thing for
any shooting but even more critical with peppy magnums.

I hope this helps. If you pass more details we can discuss them as they come.

 

[Shoots100]

More important, does the first cold bore shot fired hit the bull on the target ?
It's a hunting rifle and not a P dog rifle, so 1st shot accuracy is essential, not the 4th, 10th or 20th shot fired.
If you can go to the range, set up your rifle as you'd be using it in the field and shoot into the X at 200 yards cold bore, your doing fine.
If you can do that, all your doing now is shortening the life of your barrel.
SJC

 

[meketrefe]

More important, does the first cold bore shot fired hit the bull on the target ?
It's a hunting rifle and not a P dog rifle, so 1st shot accuracy is essential, not the 4th, 10th or 20th shot fired.
If you can go to the range, set up your rifle as you'd be using it in the field and shoot into the X at 200 yards cold bore, your doing fine.
If you can do that, all your doing now is shortening the life of your barrel.
SJC

Practice in all sort of possible conditions is the key to everything. One can be great at the range and then suck shooting prone
downhill and being all wet.
After one has that confidence, one knows exactly where the 1st shot goes and the 2nd if needed.
Barrels are the least expensive consumable when you factor ammo and everything else in.

 

[Tisto]

Wow you’re such a Literal douche bag!
Sorry for the typo I meant game kings.
But my point is top-tier Components, following the GIGO principal.

did someone hurt your feelings, OK you’re the best shot in the world and no one could shoot your gun better than you. You are squeezing out all the potential of all your guns.

I’m not saying that any shooter can shoot one hole with every gun, I’m saying that not many shooters can shoot one hole with a one hole gun. Do you understand the difference?

If you don't want to be called out for being a dick, don't be a dick.

By the same token, if you don't want people to think you're an idiot, then don't suggest using components wholly unsuitable for the stated purpose.

When are you headed up this way so that I can get all the members up here together so that you can teach us all how to shoot ? I'll even let you shoot the rifle that is the subject of this thread so you can show everyone how fantastic you are.

Since you seem to have nothing to offer this discussion, why don't you just go away.

 

[Tisto]

Tisto,
you mentioned potential long range and even large game.
So lets dissect together one thing a the time.

First the 7mm RemMag is a extremely good and versatile cartrige just because of the amazing assortment of bullets.
On average, same cases, same weight ranges it many 7mm calibers beat the 30 caliber at almost everything including long range.
The only practical advantage of the 30 caliber is when extra wounding is needed with the heaviest bullets the 30 has to offer that
are also harder to master than the 7mm RM.
The original idea was for the 7RM to offer a wide range of popular loads with comparable recoil as a heavy 30-06.

One of the issues I see with the 7RM and other magnums is the proliferation of super light rifles and thin barrels that is not helping the recoil,
accuracy and even range if they are shorter. Many are great rifles and versatile but perhaps not the first choice for long range where
these magnums can use a nr.2 or nr.3 profile 26" barrel.

In any case there are many great bullets, powders and loads that make the 7mm so versatile.

Ok so now the discussion at hand.

Accuracy:

Around 1MOA is expected of many modern rifles. That can be 0.8 MOA as well as 1.2MOA, it doesn't matter.
The bullets, charge, and recoil are also a factor in many magnums and some are hard to master.
I had to abandon the 338 lapua magnum because 1) I could not master the round even prone. 2) To shoot a lot It was hurting in the pocket.
So I had to be realistic and return to the Winmag and the 7mmRM with the 7mm being my favorite for all around. There are still a couple of
things the winmag can do better but perhaps never needed by 99% of the folks.

So what accuracy is really needed? It depends on the animal and the distance and at some point the accuracy might not be the first
concern if the bullet doesn't have the required killing power and characteristics for optimal terminal effect.

Deer presents a kill zone of 8-11 inches. Lets say a medium deer. What you need is to put a bullet in there with maximum speed
and no huge penetration is needed. Any magnum is too much for deer specially smaller at average ranges so milder / reduced loads
could be used and even a 2moa will assure kills out to 400-500 yards. It does a number on deer so you might wan to watch out
to keep meat saving shots.

For large deer might want to choose a stouter bullet and faster charge but in the same 500 yards range the 7 rem mag is devastating.

The kill zone for Elk is between 12-14 inches so in the worse case of 2" group one could go for lets say 600-700 yards shots but there
are some other much larger concerns at those distances starting with the bore, any bore below 338. More on that later.
For Elk out west you might want to look into heavier and stouter and bonded bullets that can assure penetration and wounding up to
600-700lbs that is the maximum weight for the 7mm to assure ethical hunting.
In real life and to be safe and provide maximum wounding in such animals one would have to keep impact speeds in the 400yards
before they fall below the 2200fps threshold like the amazing accubond or the partition that is even better possibly very good out to
450 yards assuring both massive shock and broad and deep wounding.

Killing power

A sumation of shock and broad wounding. this means speed at impact for proper activation and broad wounding

Could one take longer shots? have people taken longer shots? you bet, but the 7mm is not designed for large game or the high end
medium game at extra long range. A goat at long range with a VLD, fragmentation is one think but a large Elk male is another.

Could it take large bears and Moose? Yes it can. natives are allowed to take polar bears with 7mm, 308 winchester and 30-06 but
should they? Guided hunts will not allow it and will lean towards 338 winmag and 375 that are favorites.
Something even as pedestrian as a 35 whelen could also do those better at moderate distances just because the momentum
and broader wounding.

As you can see you have more than plenty of accuracy even in worse case but there is nothing wrong with going for shots closer
to 1MOA and further from 2MOA. Trying different loads and different bullets with the animals always in mind and matching
bullet designs to animal and weight will bring you closer and more confident.

I am sure you will find more loads close to the 1MOA than the 2MOA, specially good ones.

Challenges (with many magnums)

The main reason for missing game including poorly wounding or even slow agonizing deaths at the other side of a valley or
a ravine are:

Not having good range finding and correction methods.
Not practicing enough including in challenging conditions (including not being fit and out of air)
Not knowing the animal, bullets and limitations.

A tad more MOA, less MOA is less relevant if you are super comfortable with the caliber and shooting it and can
predict impacts one after another (lots of practice)

What is your rifle model? I suggested 1 extra lb. of deadblow weight in the stock because 1lb is nothing but a magnum can enjoy that.
Also if you do not care too much about the looks there are some tricks to tame harmonics in thinner barrels like a fiberglass or aluminum
wrap that one can dress up with camo anyway. Not for the chrome and ebony purists, but it works.

Also get a soft recoils pad and a nice comb raise to put your shoulder as much as possible in line with the bore. All good thing for
any shooting but even more critical with peppy magnums.

I hope this helps. If you pass more details we can discuss them as they come.

As all of my reloading adventures go, bullet selection is the first step. In many years of hunting, I have come to rely on just a few selections as my go-to choices. Nosler Partitions, and Speer Grand Slam have been heavily relied upon for big game, with outstanding results. However, sometimes these choices aren't really appropriate. Great pains have been taken to find an appropriate bullet for this application. There are several criteria that must be met. The bullet that is the current top candidate appears to be a very good choice. The Sierra 160gr Gameking HPBT # 1925 is structurally tougher than most bullets of its class. It is a true "magnum" bullet. This affords deep penetration. It has a hard tip, being folded copper jacket. This protects from tip deformation which destroys accuracy. Heavy recoil frequently damages bullets in the magazine. It has a relatively high BC. These are all factors in choosing it for testing as one of the candidates. Other bullets that made the cut were the Barnes TSX 160, Sierra Gamechanger TGK 165, and Nosler Accubond LR. 168gr. Another Nosler that seemed a good choice is the Bonded Solid Base , but there is no .284 " offering.

Powder selection can be a crap-shoot. What works well with one bullet will not necessarily work with another. All I can do is study reloading manuals and take an educated guess. Through my reloading experience, I have come to choose powders from IMR, Hodgdon, and Accurate Arms / Ramshot above all others. Everyone has their preferences, those are mine.

You asked about my rifle - it's just a standard T3 LITE STAINLESS. Nothing fancy, but well suited to foul weather and "battle scars" from rocks and brush. I could have purchased a Sako A7 or 85, but didn't simply because of the cost difference. Likewise I could put a $ 2000 piece of glass on it, but instead chose a solid, clear, nothing fancy hunt-worthy Leupold. As stated previously, I get it. It's a hunting rifle, with a hunting trigger, and a hunting barrel. I don't expect it to be the winning rifle at Wimbledon or Camp Perry.

Before all this Covid bullshit came about, I had a cats-n-dogs hunt booked in British Colunbia for this October. ( that's mountain lions and timber wolves ). The outfitter has rescheduled me for October of 2021. I had planned on taking this rifle on that hunt. While 160's seem heavy for the task, I could have easily used factory 139's that shoot as well as the test target above. It seems that +/- 1.25" is about as good as I'm able to do with this gun. Mind you, that's a 20 round 1.25". I'm getting old. I'm not 30 anymore, and my degenerative hips and knees will force me to stop hunting anything that requires a lot of walking and climbing soon. Hence, my not wishing to carry a 9 lb or heavier gun anymore. Recoil has never been an issue for me. I actually enjoy it. I have guns that have far more recoil than this little 7mm. I did, however, put a Limbsaver sorbothane recoil pad on this gun because the factory pad had a sharp edge that cut me the first time I shot it. ( almost thought I was going to need stitches ) Time will tell if I am able to do one more caribou and / or a big-horn sheep hunt. Both are physically demanding. Future western trips might be relegated to pronghorn and mule deer. Sit and wait type hunting.

 

[Tisto]

More important, does the first cold bore shot fired hit the bull on the target ?
It's a hunting rifle and not a P dog rifle, so 1st shot accuracy is essential, not the 4th, 10th or 20th shot fired.
If you can go to the range, set up your rifle as you'd be using it in the field and shoot into the X at 200 yards cold bore, your doing fine.
If you can do that, all your doing now is shortening the life of your barrel.
SJC

To answer your question, the target above has no less than 7 cold bore shots in it. All of them were within the big cluster of shots, none were the outliers. Even the fouling shot was part of that cluster - I started the session with a clean bore.

 

[meketrefe]

Tisto.
glad to hear you have done your test and research.
the sgk is a good choice. it is not my first choice but at this point it is more a matter of peesonal prefernce.
for the goats and tw perhaps something a tad lighter ans fast yet with a good bc. a cnc solid should help with this but must have a hollow meplat.
or somerhing like the 162gr amax should be great for goat out to 800-1k yards if you can hit them. I habe not tried the new tips but if they are like the 30cal 168gr amax then they are great for goat and tw at LR due to the low speed impact threshold still with decent expansion and obviously fragmentation that is good at LR in soft body anumals.
the beeger 168gr hunting VLD is great but a tad much and still more unpredictable but a good harvester but I would leave it for larger stuff like elk.
what is your average distance when stalking out west and could be your max. range you feel happy shooting?
Tikka makes nice rifles and even a light hunting magnum should give you 1MOA or close.
personally after a ladder is done and load or ammo chosen, I woukd do 6 groups of 3 with cooling in between. same load avg and SD of all groups.
that of 4 of 5 but due to the pirpose of the rifle more smaller groups seem more representative to me. matter of preference too in military steel tsrgets that simulate game kill zones in size.
just something to consider.
you have probably reloaded a lot more 7mm than I.