Another ICE shooting in MN.

spat

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WP_Plinker said:
And even so, especially since he seemed to already be disarmed, there was no reason to use lethal force.
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I've seen lots of people *say* that, but I haven't seen any actual proof.

They show a grainy video of an agent with a gun, but I have not seen anything that proves that was the gun that Pretti had.

On top of that, the standard for self defense (as we all know) doesn't require him to have been an actual danger, just for the agent that fired to have had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. So, if the agent who fired can make a case that he reasonably believed Pretti was still armed and attempting to fire, that is enough. It doesn't actually matter if another officer had control of the gun at that point.
 
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spat said:
I've seen lots of people *say* that, but I haven't seen any actual proof.

They show a grainy video of an agent with a gun, but I have not seen anything that proves that was the gun that Pretti had.

On top of that, the standard for self defense (as we all know) doesn't require him to have been an actual danger, just for the agent that fired to have had a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. So, if the agent who fired can make a case that he reasonably believed Pretti was still armed and attempting to fire, that is enough. It doesn't actually matter if another officer had control of the gun at that point.
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The ‘reasonable fear’ standard is not whatever an officer later claims to have felt; it’s what a *reasonable* officer would believe based on the totality of circumstances at that moment.
Deadly force requires a present, articulable threat. Lingering speculation of danger from earlier doesn't cut it.
Uncertainty/ poor visibility make deadly force *less* reasonable and therefore weakens the officer's self-defense claim.
 
Bigfoot

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I'm looking forward to seeing the next video of a low-IQ useful idiot getting blasted full of holes.

After watching all the videos, I realized that the useful idiots are almost all fat, dumb, and ugly. I swear, there's something to that. They're garbage fucking people. The ones that aren't fat yet will be at some point, that's if they live long enough.

But enough about the losers. I want to see a certain someone who's in charge of it all arrested, convicted, and publicly hanged. And the rest of his crew thrown out of a helicopter on live TV, And then give Minnesota to Canada and let them deal with the retards, after all, both those dipshits have a lot in common.
 
Bigfoot

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I'm thinking Minneagadishu needs something like a "shock and awe" treatment.

Something so overwhelming that the useful idiots shit their pants and go home, and the illegal criminal aliens self-deport.
 
spat

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Rap said:
The ‘reasonable fear’ standard is not whatever an officer later claims to have felt; it’s what a *reasonable* officer would believe based on the totality of circumstances at that moment.
Deadly force requires a present, articulable threat. Lingering speculation of danger from earlier doesn't cut it.
Uncertainty/ poor visibility make deadly force *less* reasonable and therefore weakens the officer's self-defense claim.
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You're not wrong about the standard, but I'm not so sure you're right that it wouldn't be met in those circumstances.

What would it take in your opinion for a reasonable officer to fear serious injury in those circumstances ?

IMHO, just that the guy fighting on the bottom of the dog pile managed to get his hand on his weapon. That would be enough. The officer doesn't have to have a reasonable fear for his own safety, the safety of anyone else present could suffice.

We aren't likely to know in detail for quite a while what actually happened, or what specifically that officer thought he knew that led him to fire. But what matters is only what a reasonable officer who knew what he knew would have believed.


This is the problem Pretti put himself in a situation where his life literally hung on the narrowest thread of what each of those officers believed in the moment.

It's sort of like "speeding shouldn't be a death sentence, but try it around dead mans curve in the rain and it might be anyway".
 
spat

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Bigfoot said:
I'm thinking Minneagadishu needs something like a "shock and awe" treatment.

Something so overwhelming that the useful idiots shit their pants and go home, and the illegal criminal aliens self-deport.
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What they need to do is switch the focus away from just deportation and onto the people interfering. The directive should be to prioritize the arrest of the people interfering over the deportation. Then use the deportations as bait to put the miscreants away.

If they really wanted to, they could even put some officers undercover as "illegals" and then when the circus comes to town to "save" them, they can round up the whole clown show.
 
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"This is the problem Pretti put himself in a situation where his life literally hung on the narrowest thread of what each of those officers believed in the moment."

---
Suggesting that Pretti’s presence as a civilian legal observer is “the problem” is both legally and morally misguided.

Video shows that Pretti was holding only a cellphone (and *not* brandishing a weapon) just before he was pepper-sprayed, tackled by several agents, and then fatally shot while pinned to the ground.

He was also a lawful gun owner exercising his right to carry for self-defense — the same way that most on this forum do. That in itself is not a justification for lethal force.
 
Grimscale

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spat said:
They show a grainy video of an agent with a gun, but I have not seen anything that proves that was the gun that Pretti had.
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A couple of the videos Langley reviewed showed a plain-clothed ICE officer removing a handgun from an in-waistband holster the perp was wearing, then turning away from the scuffle and starting to walk away. One video also showed the magazine of the confiscated pistol popping out and onto the ground just before full possession was achieved. so... does that Sig model allow it to fire without a magazine? Does that Sig model suffer from ND whether a mag is in or not?
But then Langley claims there was an ND and shows a video where the supposed round impact location was circled. But, to me, that location would have only been valid if the round passed through one or two men.
Langley also claimed the arm of the "grey coated man" was pushed further away from his body from the recoil of the shot. I didn't see that, nor did I see the slide move at all. But in the graininess of the video seeing something as small as a pistol slide would be damn near impossible. Langley also killed the audio on all the vids he reviewed, so noting the actual instance of the "first shot" is completely impossible.

Overall I see this as a plausible explanation of events, where an ND of a confiscated pistol set off a "fear factor" response from the officers present resulting in the death of Pretti.
But, if this is the case, what can be done to reduce the "we want justice" demands that will invariably come from the family of the dead man? Would there be any "teaching moment" that can be stated for this incident?

so far all the vids focus on the moment of the man's death. I have yet to see anything showing the circumstances that resulted in him being jumped by a pack of ICE officers.
And I completely disagree with anyone claiming a conceal carry pistol holder shouldn't be carrying when attending a protest. People like that would essentially be supporting every one of heil hochul's "sensitive places" bullshit.
 
spat

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Grimscale said:
A couple of the videos Langley reviewed showed a plain-clothed ICE officer removing a handgun from an in-waistband holster the perp was wearing, then turning away from the scuffle and starting to walk away. One video also showed the magazine of the confiscated pistol popping out and onto the ground just before full possession was achieved. so... does that Sig model allow it to fire without a magazine? Does that Sig model suffer from ND whether a mag is in or not?
But then Langley claims there was an ND and shows a video where the supposed round impact location was circled. But, to me, that location would have only been valid if the round passed through one or two men.
Langley also claimed the arm of the "grey coated man" was pushed further away from his body from the recoil of the shot. I didn't see that, nor did I see the slide move at all. But in the graininess of the video seeing something as small as a pistol slide would be damn near impossible. Langley also killed the audio on all the vids he reviewed, so noting the actual instance of the "first shot" is completely impossible.

Overall I see this as a plausible explanation of events, where an ND of a confiscated pistol set off a "fear factor" response from the officers present resulting in the death of Pretti.
But, if this is the case, what can be done to reduce the "we want justice" demands that will invariably come from the family of the dead man? Would there be any "teaching moment" that can be stated for this incident?

so far all the vids focus on the moment of the man's death. I have yet to see anything showing the circumstances that resulted in him being jumped by a pack of ICE officers.
And I completely disagree with anyone claiming a conceal carry pistol holder shouldn't be carrying when attending a protest. People like that would essentially be supporting every one of heil hochul's "sensitive places" bullshit.
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Carrying to a protest, I agree with.

But if you're going to do that, then don't involve yourself with any shenanigans.

If you intend to do anything more than protest, and less than a full send violent resistance, then leave the gun at home.

Basically, as soon as you have a gun, then violence is all or nothing, there is no "escalate/de-escalate" there is only peace, and death.
 
stokes

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Rap said:
He was also a lawful gun owner exercising his right to carry for self-defense — the same way that most on this forum do. That in itself is not a justification for lethal force.
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Its been reported that he wasnt carrying his permit or any kind of ID, as most of these protesters do because they intend to get collared and make it difficult on the cops to ID them. If that is true then he wasnt a " lawful gun owner" at the time.
 
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You are dealing with the you tube practical jokers that put themselves in harms way to make a funny.
They have no idea about consequences.
They could stay home and just write checked to the illegals or move them into their house.
But noo, they need the 15 min. of fame; well you get what you get.
 
togmaster

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stokes said:
Its been reported that he wasnt carrying his permit or any kind of ID, as most of these protesters do because they intend to get collared and make it difficult on the cops to ID them. If that is true then he wasnt a " lawful gun owner" at the time.
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What do permits have to do with your right to carry a gun?
 
stokes

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togmaster said:
What do permits have to do with your right to carry a gun?
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Not commenting on whether or not permits are justified per 2A, but the law says you have to have one to carry legally, if he didnt have the paper, he wasnt a "lawful gun owner" in the eyes of the law. Just for the record, I agree permits should not be part of the game, yet here we are.
 
Steal2B

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togmaster said:
What do permits have to do with your right to carry a gun?
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The dead cop wrestler deciding to not carry his permit and ID (as required by Minnesota law and the training he completed) as he armed himself to go a law enforcement action lends credence to his mindset was to potentially / likely be involved with a physical altercation or at least physically interfere with law enforcement while armed since the interference coordinators instructed protesters to not carry id.
 
Beerman

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“No one who wants to be peaceful shows up at a protest with a firearm that is loaded with two full magazines.” -Kash Patel

“No one needs more than one bullet to kill a deer.” -Andrew Cuomo

“…(S)hall not be infringed.” -Amendment Two, US Constitution


The first quote has me very concerned. The second makes me chuckle. The third gives me hope. But that first one…
 
CaseHardened

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Steal2B said:
This guy is not like many of us here.

I was streaming an upper midwest radio station and it was brought up (and apparently confirmed in the media) that he was not "legally" carrying. Contrary to Minnesota law he was carrying without having his permit and government issued photo ID (eg drivers license). Not a major criminal infraction but it appears to be enough that his carry permit could have been revoked. Based on required CCP training in MN, the Minnesota 2A attorney on the radio thought the deceased likely left his ID behind intentionally.

There was also discussion on toxicology tests to confirm if he violated CCP laws on alcohol / substance.

The lawyer indicated the area shooting took place was not a Minnesota restricted location but it was questioned if he had carried / parked in a restricted location (IDK, guessing they previously discussed a restricted hospital, school or post office parking lot).

Yeah, it's in the weeds stuff but it looks like he made a choice to not be legal.

Still, I don't think many of us here would conceal carry without our ID / permit and while armed seek out an arrest activity to start wrestling with armed law officers. He was not there to watch protesters, he was there to disrupt an obvious active enforcement action.

It's a shame the guy was shot and died but he was not a responsible concealed carrier caught up in an unfortunate turn of fate. In both foresight and hindsight he was doing dumb shit. If he left his ID behind (as the protestors have been doing) because he figured he may get in an altercation .... WTF.

In NY I think we all understand the additional burdens and responsibilities that a concealed carrier takes to further manage avoidable confrontations, we aim to keep even calmer when taunted while carrying, we try to ignore road rage jerks even more when carrying, we find ourselves actively being the gray man with a heightened situational awareness anticipating what could go wrong ... especially during mutual risks such as routine traffic stops when interacting with law enforcement .
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Very well said.

I carry not because I have any illusions that I am invincible.

I fully realize in this Communist State of Mass utilizing my firearm in any situation will end my life as I know it.

But if I am ever in a "George Zimmerman" situation where I am on my back, having my skull pounded on concrete by a much larger assailant, I will do all I can to make that assault a costly one for the thug.
 
CaseHardened

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Grimscale said:
A couple of the videos Langley reviewed showed a plain-clothed ICE officer removing a handgun from an in-waistband holster the perp was wearing, then turning away from the scuffle and starting to walk away. One video also showed the magazine of the confiscated pistol popping out and onto the ground just before full possession was achieved. so... does that Sig model allow it to fire without a magazine? Does that Sig model suffer from ND whether a mag is in or not?
But then Langley claims there was an ND and shows a video where the supposed round impact location was circled. But, to me, that location would have only been valid if the round passed through one or two men.
Langley also claimed the arm of the "grey coated man" was pushed further away from his body from the recoil of the shot. I didn't see that, nor did I see the slide move at all. But in the graininess of the video seeing something as small as a pistol slide would be damn near impossible. Langley also killed the audio on all the vids he reviewed, so noting the actual instance of the "first shot" is completely impossible.

Overall I see this as a plausible explanation of events, where an ND of a confiscated pistol set off a "fear factor" response from the officers present resulting in the death of Pretti.
But, if this is the case, what can be done to reduce the "we want justice" demands that will invariably come from the family of the dead man? Would there be any "teaching moment" that can be stated for this incident?

so far all the vids focus on the moment of the man's death. I have yet to see anything showing the circumstances that resulted in him being jumped by a pack of ICE officers.
And I completely disagree with anyone claiming a conceal carry pistol holder shouldn't be carrying when attending a protest. People like that would essentially be supporting every one of heil hochul's "sensitive places" bullshit.
Click to expand...
"Attending a Protest"

Attending a Protest, LEGALLY, involves Marching, Signage, Chants (non-amplified).

NOT looting, arson, vandalism, blocking public streets, assaults on LEO.

I have attended rallies while armed. I did none of the "popular" things that are accepted today in Blue States.

I only carried at all because you just never know. Road Rage, Mentally Unstable People .... there are instances where running away does not work.

Obviously I carried my ID and Firearm License, and was fully compliant with LEO instructions.

A person who brings a gun to a riot, deliberately leaves ID at home, and assaults LEO is not "Attending a Protest".
 
tirwin1

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The hypocrisy of the left is off the charts. Remember Gabby Giffords?

Former Rep. Gabby Giffords, a gun violence survivor who has now made it her mission pushing gun control, stepped into this mess with a statement that exposed the entire charade.

"Alex was a 37-year-old ICU nurse who served veterans at the VA hospital and cared deeply about his patients," she wrote in a post on X. "He was a lawful gun owner who was protesting in his community when the agents detained, attacked, and then fatally shot him. He had joined protests following the killing of fellow Minnesotan Renee Nicole Good earlier this month. He had the right to be there and should still be alive."

There's just one problem. According to the organization created after she was shot:

According to the Giffords Law Center, "Firearms in and around democratic environments threaten not only public safety but also the integrity and trust in our most fundamental political processes." They argue that "the presence of guns at protests and demonstrations not only chills the exercise of our fundamental freedoms, such as freedom of speech and assembly, it also makes people more likely to be shot."

Which is it bitch?
 
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stokes said:
Its been reported that he wasnt carrying his permit or any kind of ID, as most of these protesters do because they intend to get collared and make it difficult on the cops to ID them. If that is true then he wasnt a " lawful gun owner" at the time.
Click to expand...
So he gets fined and/or potentially even gets his license revoked. The border patrol agents weren't checking for his papers when they shot him.
 
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My favorite part of this latest legally justified shooting is all of the anti-gunners now coming out in support of this guy carrying a gun. Up until now, they've all argued how nobody has the right to carry a gun to an assembly and that the type of gun he was carrying was only meant to inflict the most amount of damage in the least amount of time. Now they've all done a 180 on those opinions, but I'm sure only in this case because it suits them.
 
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