Another random why question

[Edwardteach72]

I see a lot of new shooters and even "veteran" carriers seem to still go for .380s and for the life of me just don't understand why.

Ok 15 years ago you could make the argument size, but today your stupid little .380 is practically the same size as a stupid little 9mm.

Let's take the glocks for instance, glock 42 43 and 26 are basically the same footprint, now I will pretend to see why people would pick a 43 over a 26 as their primary EDC, but why are people even considering a 42 over a 26 or 43

The glock is just an example there is also the shield but smith was actually not dumb and decided no .380

 

[Edwardteach72]

Oh and I laugh at the whole "bet you wouldn't want to get shot with a .380" argument, well shit to be honest I don't want to get shot with a BB or pellet gun, doesn't mean I'll carry it.

But the .380 is already more expensive than 9mm and does not compare in performance

 

[Uzi]

380's can be easier to shoot. Less recoil on similar weight and frame sizes accounts for the increased ability to get more rounds on target in a panic situation and allows easier follow up shots as well. Micro compacts for deep concealment can be made with thinner/smaller profiles as compared to similar fashioned 9mm's without compromising safety. Not everything is a glock in the handgun world, and therefore not everything should be compared to them. A very deadly round, not to be underestimated to achieve the goal of eliminating a threat and getting yourself out of harm's way. If people think just because they have so and so of a gun that an aggressor is going to do what they think they will every time, they're sadly mistaken. The goal of a handgun for self defense, should be just that, to defend your life so you can live another day. It's not about shoot to kill. 22lr's have been killing people pretty well for a long time, they're not ideal, but they still do the job. I think the same general sense applies to 380's.

 

[Acer-m14]

10:55 mark .. LOL .. Glocks freeze up LOL ..

 

[Acer-m14]

The goal of a handgun for self defense, should be just that, to defend your life so you can live another day. It's not about shoot to kill. 22lr's have been killing people pretty well for a long time, they're not ideal, but they still do the job. I think the same general sense applies to 380's.

i'm not for the kill , just get away and live .. the bang bang no matter what cal i think will change a assholes mind .. he has no idea what your shooting at him/her .. like Uzi says 22Lr is not the best .. but it can really mess up your day ..

 

[Edwardteach72]

Who said anything about kill? It's about stopping a threat from continuing to be a threat. And all defensive handgun calibers are not good at doing that to bgin with so why choose a worse round to start

 

[Marine Cpl]

.380's that are the same size as a 9mm are stupid. For example. The Glock 42 in .380 is the same exact size as the Kahr PM9 or CM9 in 9mm.

However, .380's in the Ruger LCP size or in an even smaller Seecamp size are in a totally different ballpark. Those things are tiny.

As far as performance goes, there is no .380 ACP hollow point that penetrates enough. Even the best performing ones barely make the 12 inch mark and only do so by barely expanding or partially expanding to the .40 range. Many times even then they end up penetrating slightly less than 12 inches so why bother? There just isn't enough case to push the bullet into decent penetration levels after expanding and parachuting to a stop.

With a FMJ or Hard Cast it's a different story. Those will penetrate both sides of a human body through bone and muscle just the same as any 9mm FMJ or Hard Cast would even after going through a mild barrier like a car door.

 

[Edwardteach72]

.380's that are the same size as a 9mm are stupid. For example. The Glock 42 in .380 is the same exact size as the Kahr PM9 or CM9 in 9mm.

However, .380's in the Ruger LCP size or in an even smaller Seecamp size are in a totally different ballpark. Those things are tiny.

As far as performance goes, there is no .380 ACP hollow point that penetrates enough. Even the best performing ones barely make the 12 inch mark and only do so by barely expanding or partially expanding to the .40 range. Many times even then they end up penetrating slightly less than 12 inches so why bother? There just isn't enough case to push the bullet into decent penetration levels after expanding and parachuting to a stop.

With a FMJ or Hard Cast it's a different story. Those will penetrate both sides of a human body through bone and muscle just the same as any 9mm FMJ or Hard Cast would even after going through a mild barrier like a car door.

See this is my point. Yes I would love a seacamp but not at the price they cost, and the lcp2 looks nice and is a great size for uber stupid small footprint carry but at that point id opt for a g43 or a shield or any other stupid small 9mm.

So i guess I just don't get .380s in 9mm size guns for a carry option

 

[Marine Cpl]

Stop and kill are 2 totally different things. Kill with a shot or shots from a .22 or a .380 hollow point that doesn't hit vitals where the perp dies a few minutes or 10's of minutes later doesn't stop the threat. That goes with any caliber. Look at the Texas Church Shooter. He was shot in an area in between the vest that didn't reach vitals. He wasn't stopped right then and there and was able to continue to drive away until he bled out.

 

[Darth]

380s make a smaller gun than 9mm. No 2 ways about it. I pocket carry a P238 when I can't fit my G26 in swim shorts.

 

[Marine Cpl]

See this is my point. Yes I would love a seacamp but not at the price they cost, and the lcp2 looks nice and is a great size for uber stupid small footprint carry but at that point id opt for a g43 or a shield or any other stupid small 9mm.

So i guess I just don't get .380s in 9mm size guns for a carry option

If you get an LCP2 and carry Hard Cast Flat points, you'd be armed about the same as if you carried a 9mm without expanding ammo. Both penetrate over 30 inches in gel and both would go through a car door.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Stop and kill are 2 totally different things. Kill with a shot or shots from a .22 or a .380 hollow point that doesn't hit vitals where the perp dies a few minutes or 10's of minutes later doesn't stop the threat. That goes with any caliber. Look at the Texas Church Shooter. He was shot in an area in between the vest that didn't reach vitals. He wasn't stopped right then and there and was able to continue to drive away until he bled out.

Bam again with the knowledge bombs.

For some reason people think an aggessor is going to stop after getting tagged with one may be 2 shots. When in reality most will either straight up continue to fight until the body doesn't have enough blood to keep going or the main box is shut down..... some/many might retreat but if they have a gun they can still continue to shoot at you while running away.. again not shooting to kill, shooting to stop the threat how that is achieved is case by case basis

 

[Darth]

See this is my point. Yes I would love a seacamp but not at the price they cost, and the lcp2 looks nice and is a great size for uber stupid small footprint carry but at that point id opt for a g43 or a shield or any other stupid small 9mm.

So i guess I just don't get .380s in 9mm size guns for a carry option

Glock has a specific reason for some of their 380s. Some countries, like Mexico, ban civilian ownership of "military calibers." 9mm is such a caliber. So they went 380.

 

[Edwardteach72]

380s make a smaller gun than 9mm. No 2 ways about it. I pocket carry a P238 when I can't fit my G26 in swim shorts.

Do you consider there to be a noticeble difference between a g42 or a 43?

 

[Edwardteach72]

Glock has a specific reason for some of their 380s. Some countries, like Mexico, ban civilian ownership of "military calibers." 9mm is such a caliber. So they went 380.

I know that but I'm not asking in mexicogunforun but in nygunforum where people can get any caliber they would want

 

[Darth]

Do you consider there to be a noticeble difference between a g42 or a 43?

Yes, but it is widely suspected that Glock did it that way to get people's money twice.

 

[Darth]

I know that but I'm not asking in mexicogunforun but in nygunforum where people can get any caliber they would want

And NYGF just told you the reason about some of the 380 Glocks, no extra charge.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Yes, but it is widely suspected that Glock did it that way to get people's money twice.

No I get that as well but there are people who to this day are buying 42s they should be already running that line out 1 year after the 43 came out

 

[Darth]

No I get that as well but there are people who to this day are buying 42s they should be already running that line out 1 year after the 43 came out

Yes that is surprising. When I get s polymer 380 it's going to be the LCP.

I think the G42 is lame too.

 

[MilesTeg]

Glock fan boy and the 42 is pointless now with the release of the 43. I still need a smaller gun to ankle carry and might have to sacrifice caliber to achieve it. I would like to try a few more holster for the 43 before jumping ship.

 

[Marine Cpl]

Yes that is surprising. When I get s polymer 380 it's going to be the LCP.

I think the G42 is lame too.

I'm considering one as well but I'm going to wait for a bit. There is rumor that Diamondback may be releasing a Gen 3 DB9 that is the same size as an LCP. Hopefully they get their act together and don't release it after they get their kinks worked out. The previous 2 versions were trash.

 

[Edwardteach72]

And I'm just using the glock as an example. For the same size one could get say a shield, oh but you are a glock fan well They offer the 43, not a glock fan but like 911s ok well there is the Sig 9somethingsomething and so on,

These days for marginally larger than most common (seacamp excluded) carry 380s you can get your flavor but in 9mm

 

[Edwardteach72]

I'm considering one as well but I'm going to wait for a bit. There is rumor that Diamondback may be releasing a Gen 3 DB9 that is the same size as an LCP. Hopefully they get their act together and don't release it after they get their kinks worked out. The previous 2 versions were trash.

I wish the diamondacks weren't junk those db9s are small AF

 

[Marine Cpl]

I wish the diamondacks weren't junk those db9s are small AF

There are ways to make them reliable with a dremel, locktite, and a Keltec Pf9 magazine spring. I'm not willing to do that however so I'll wait.

 

[Edwardteach72]

There are ways to make them reliable with a dremel, locktite, and a Keltec Pf9 magazine spring. I'm not willing to do that however so I'll wait.

Nope not worth my time or money if they don't come from the factory reliable.
(My P07 and the trigger spring issue that is a known issue is different that's a $7 New better spring that also improves the trigger )

 

[Edwardteach72]

Now that's a noticeable difference worth going to for deep concealment
Glock26/27 in back.
DB9 in front

 

[Marine Cpl]

Now that's a noticeable difference worth going to for deep concealment
Glock26/27 in back.
DB9 in front

View attachment 20764

This one shows the width difference.

From left to right. DB9, Glock 27, Glock 19

 

[Cooolone]

So much misinformation...

Want one shot stopping power, you aren't going to find it until you get into magnum ballistic performance, period!...

That said, the ability to conceal and fit into small places make the little. 380's attractive. Some, like the SIG P238, which I do carry, is a very nice shooter. And any ridiculous ballistic penetration performance data doesn't mean squat if your firearm is prime to failure, or you cannot hit what you're aiming at. The little SIG allows both with consistency enough for me to put it on my hip when traveling light. As for those penetration mongers out there, Underwood ammunition and some others meet 9mm performance. But again, I'll take 9" of penetration on my POA "ANY DAY"... because this is a warm weather carry for me. Winter and otherwise with layers or heavy coverings is time for my SIG 229 .357sig.

There's a study a guy did with one shot stopping performance from LE and FBI data. You'd be surprised to learn some of what works and doesn't, but bottom line is I don't like the 9mm so called pocket guns, my Glock26 pretty much gathers dust anymore.

All in all, in the end, it just comes down to preference, because all that other noise about penetration, two to center mass/one to the head, and one shot/one kill, is all BS for movie screens!

Carry what you shoot best!

 

[Marine Cpl]

So much misinformation...

Want one shot stopping power, you aren't going to find it until you get into magnum ballistic performance, period!...

That said, the ability to conceal and fit into small places make the little. 380's attractive. Some, like the SIG P238, which I do carry, is a very nice shooter. And any ridiculous ballistic penetration performance data doesn't mean squat if your firearm is prime to failure, or you cannot hit what you're aiming at. The little SIG allows both with consistency enough for me to put it on my hip when traveling light. As for those penetration mongers out there, Underwood ammunition and some others meet 9mm performance. But again, I'll take 9" of penetration on my POA "ANY DAY"... because this is a warm weather carry for me. Winter and otherwise with layers or heavy coverings is time for my SIG 229 .357sig.

There's a study a guy did with one shot stopping performance from LE and FBI data. You'd be surprised to learn some of what works and doesn't, but bottom line is I don't like the 9mm so called pocket guns, my Glock26 pretty much gathers dust anymore.

All in all, in the end, it just comes down to preference, because all that other noise about penetration, two to center mass/one to the head, and one shot/one kill, is all BS for movie screens!

Carry what you shoot best!

I think you are mistaken. Even Magnums aren't one shot stops unless you hit vitals. A gut shot from a .357 Magnum isn't going to stop someone faster than a .380 FMJ that hits the heart or spinal column.

Shot placement and penetration to vitals are what stops someone rather than velocity, weight, and the size of a bullet.

Also penetration in gel isn't the same as penetration in a body. To calibrate gel a BB going at a certain fps (I think 550 or 750 fps) must penetrate 4 inches in gel. That same BB isn't going to penetrate through skin and bones into your heart 4 inches away. So when a .380 only penetrates 10 inches in gel, it might not make it to vitals depending on the angle of the shot or if it goes through an arm and expands in the arm, exits, and then attempts to penetrate your chest to vitals while expanded.

Gel is just a medium that provides repeatable results. Nothing more. Inches in gel aren't inches in a human body.

 

[Edwardteach72]

Who said anything about stoppig power.

Shit my very first post states how most common carried calibers a horrible at stopping a human